Maverick ZINE — Tattoo Culture, Art & Artist Stories

But the thing is is like there's a hating of certain things and it's like why don't you just tweak it why don't you just you know put your own flare on the thing you know if you hate it so much you know but if somebody wants it somebody desires it why not somebody's still going to come into your shop tomorrow and want a full Celtic not work sleeve you know yeah and you're sitting there doing nothing cuz you're [ __ ] a hater so what are you going to do the thing that keeps drawing me back to it is there is no ceiling to this it's constantly evolving you will never perfect this there's always going to be a new Twist on things and after 30 years of thinking that we were hitting the ceiling it's oh it's just about to it's going you know and it's it's getting [Music] [Music] wild what's happening I'm Austin Spencer this is support your local tattoo where I'm extremely excited to hang out with my buddy Nolan wheeler today he's been uh featured on E Master he's a traveler he's a family man he's an overall extremely talented tattooer but uh appreciate it yeah thanks thanks for having me my name is Nan wheeler i 27 year tattooer I've uh I've known Austin now for she's 20 years I guess somewhere around there [ __ ] hey has it been yeah it's it's a wild ride up until then and then and then beyond right you know where we're going so yeah thanks for having me out dud yeah you're rolling through town doing a doing a guest spot yeah um [ __ ] I moved to Austin about two three years ago I wanted to uh to raise my family around extended family and wanted to be a little bit you know uh more cognitive of that and it's it's been great um but I still miss Vegas and I still have my friends here my clients of course you know but but I I you develop these relationships with your clients and I I don't know I can't miss out on that and I always feel bad you know trying to tell them like hey come out and visit me you know just buy a plane ticket and get a room you and all that know and and I wish I had a better facility to to kind of like an apartment you know sort of thing that they can actually stay at you know and so maybe one day hopefully I can do something like that but U but yeah I always feel bad about saying like ah sorry I can't work on this I you know have to come out and visit so I'm trying to to to take that pressure away from from them for continuing projects or starting new ones and so yeah so your studio in Austin is a a private Studio private Studio I I've had a private Studio it's more than I need way more than I needs um yeah you do cartwheels in there and stuff you know get get your going in the morning so much room um so much wasted room like uh now I I had it with the intention of of having a few artists there but I I'm I'm I'm not good at like at at at having big shops or at least like with the starting a new family and everything I wasn't uh I wasn't geared in that direction so I like the idea of guest artists coming and visiting and and having a space for them and so I I actually have it on a digital key that I just emailed them and they have a key to the place on their phone so like they can literally come and go as they please and I don't even need to really be there you know great and I I I I love the setup it's it's quaint it's your own private Studio whenever you come you know and um and it's it's it's your own deal you know so it's simple but it's uh it's enough space that you can actually uh enjoy it and not feel too crammed um but um but yeah I I love the private studio and then I also love like going and actually guest spotting at friend stop shops because as you know they're all different they're flavored different there's all kinds of different characters each one has its own I don't know appeal and uh and and I don't know it's as we were talking we were talking last night and uh and we were talking about some of the old stories that we have collected over the years of all the I don't know ratchety things that happen in in shops you know and shops and everything and I don't necessarily want to go back to that you know um it's fun and and maybe we glorify them a little bit too much but I I think it had its place in it time place in time you know yeah um I would go back and do it a thousand times over for sure you know but um but yeah at 45 now I don't I don't know if that's really where I need to be so but I do love going to uh you know friend shop in Dallas and uh Austin and Washington now uh Montana and and it's also like a little bit of a little vacation for me to to be able to go and kind of sightsee and you know get out of my hometown and I I feel like for myself having uh a large shop a buddy of mine in Dallas he has two shops uh each one has I think damn near 20 artists 15 to 20 artists and it's yeah I think at one time he had like 15 uh Apprentice is uh you know and it's like I don't know how he handled I me he's he's amazing dude but what that Dark Age and uh yeah Franco um and and Frank and hats off to them they Aude I realize my limitations and I I don't have that ability and at least I don't know maybe maybe sometime in the future but where my head's at with the kids uh twins that just turned a year old and another one on the way so my hands are full and I uh and I definitely don't want to neglect a shop uh by by by me being so involved in family and I definitely don't want to take yeah to build a big shop you got to be there you got to be more that's got to be priority number one yeah for sure I don't want to I don't want to be that own I would never want to be that owner that just I got the space and you work for me and you know you know that I it it should be a family it should be an extended family so if I'm going to give it its um Justice if I'm going to give those guys their due Justice you know I need to be there and I need to be a part of them you know just keep rolling with what you're doing you got a good system going on what shops do you uh you uh guess that when you come through Vegas right I mean looks like you did two shops at this time you generally go to seven right before I was going going to S um that was my uh home base but there you worked there for years and I worked there for years uh Daniel's a good friend of mine M's a good friend of mine and I I love all the people there this time around I'm working at my buddy Miguel's shop Camarillo okay and morid tattoo um uh you I've become great friends over the years and uh and and I have a lot of fun there too it's hard because I I I have a handful of shops that I couldn't work at you and then I'm like splitting up the week going to two different shops another one is uh nix's shop smiles and cries yeah which is a pretty new shop couple years you know and you been in there yet I haven't been in there yet but I I kind of want to talk to them like he's a character yeah come come come by next week I'll be there and uh you got to see the place he's he's an awesome dude do yeah yeah I think he's setting up a pod too I think he's got one going on there too but I get to I don't know be a tourist in other tattoo shops and get a hang out with my friends yeah and I don't miss out on that part of life so being a traveling artist and having my own guest studio to me it fulfills you know I I have I have zero stress right now and and I I feel fulfilled so I definitely want to keep doing this for a while I'm not sure if I'm going to stay in Austin uh I I have plans but I want to also kind of see what those um Ventures may look like so Austin for now yeah see where it goes Pacific Northwest maybe so most likely yeah most likely Co leaning in that direction who's your buddy again that you're gonna uh go he opened up his shopping outside of Missoula right uh James Strickland Apex Tattooing in Missoula real nice Studio there have you been to that I haven't I don't sure if he actually open open his doors yet but I'll be up there in July I had lunch next to him randomly one day I don't know if I told you that I was just sitting next to this guy and I was like you look familiar I'm pretty sure you're a tattoo her from Vegas he's 702 right so [ __ ] how did you end up in Vegas though so I got my start in Alaska uh late '90s it was 97 when I first got into tattooing I was 17 at the time and uh you know like any other 17-year-old I had no direction and I was kind of leaning into the not so good direction and uh a few friends had gotten tattooed in town um and I felt like I could just go and get something so I started asking around and yeah most of the shops that would tattoo me were they had carpet you know they were tattooing on carpet they were like your feet would stick to it and everything they had a dog in the corner and it was just like kind of like all right you know even at 17 I know like yeah that's probably not good you know the guy smoking was Anchorage okay okay yeah yeah I lived outside of Anchorage but anyway but small place but yeah I I didn't get a good vibe from you know most the shops that I was work looking at there that wanted me to you know that wanted me to sit down and and get tattooed so I came across Ray's Tattoo Dragon Ray um and dragon Ray Dragon Ray how classy is that sounds 90s as [ __ ] yeah yeah yeah um his name in red and white on the you know yeah uh good dude uh he he gave me a start right you know and I think we talked about this a little bit last night but uh the the fact that we old schoolers or you know myself and and him and and a lot you we believe that there is a place that you have to start and and go by this metric to to be a proper tattoo and how much nonsense that actually is um and how much of a a gatekeeping culture it used to be and how much different it's become it's amazing um I I definitely love this a lot more you know the um the the explosion of art you know the explosion of like creativity allowing people to uh Express you know themselves in unique ways and actually push the bounds of what they thought was capable um and Laser it off like cover it up black it out cover it up with more you know it's why not right you know such a taboo thing before but it's like says who you know it says like these old guys have never even tried it you know or they tried it with dated material right DED machines dated needles dated uh inks you know that don't actually aren't able capable of doing that now we actually have like you know you you offer like needles that actually are you know finer polished longer papered you know thinner so like you we have better products nowadays that don't damage the skin so much you know can actually push things a little bit better we have better healing practices so the ideas that they had when I first came in of why it has to be this certain way have why you have to be taught by a traditional tattoo and you have to go into this hazing process and all that it's nonsense you know it's uh I think it's like a um a frat boy kind of thing like you have to get old boy [ __ ] you know um for me I I didn't have to go through any of that the the guy that I apprenticed under he a Outlaw Biker and he was he was actually a solid guy um and uh and he shop there he had another Apprentice there and he and I still great friends today and yeah yeah he's a good dude I was just there you talk to Dragon Ray at all I he's he's a Wandering Soul you know so he's just down about cruising doing think you know I don't think he has a MySpace oh you know uh no I don't even know if he has a phone number to be honest he's he's that he's that kind of guy right yeah so he doesn't you know even Sam he doesn't they're a lot closer but it's like six months from when they talk you know so it's like that sort of you know and it's just how he is you know how did you convince Dragon Ray to take you on I went in there for a tattoo um I wanted to get some like little dorky like you know whatever off the wall you know it's just the coolest one in amongst the flash you know and uh uh at that time it was oh Crow and uh I think Cherry Creek was around then too but I think it was like beginning of Cherry Creek stuff but um it was it was a JD Crow tribal thing or whatever you know it was like a yinyang not a yinyang it was like a triple yin-yang thing this whatever okay didn't know what it meant you know and I was like I want to get this it was just cool at the time like 17 time he's like well not going to tattoo you today but um you know if you want your birthday's in six months you know if you want you know come by and need and like and we talked a little bit knew I was an artist he knew I like to draw comic books and stuff he found out you know I told him um but he said come by you know and and like you know if you know yeah this is a cool design but if you want to like you know kind of create something of your own I can do custom work so I'm my business card right you know yeah and um you I come by and he kind of helped uh walk me through my first tattoo which I thought was really really cool I don't know I I didn't deserve that right you I I don't know why he you know he's that's what I mean he's a good guy and uh and he actually that's cool he actually uh he actually like introduced me into Tattooing in a very proper manner he was former green ber uh clean freak you know um big dude you know uh very I don't know imposing guy you know and so you know but solid honest great dude you know and uh and so for him to go I don't know him I don't know his family I don't I'm not a part of that that world at all you know uh for him to kind of give me that chance you know I I took it in all I I took it very serious so that's cool um yeah like I I said I wasn't going in the right direction in life you know and so I dropped it all I dropped all my I saw when I had an opportunity I dropped all my friends I dropped every nice and just cleared out my life cleared out my head and I focused everything into tattooing and I felt I I felt he deserved that right you know for that happened pretty much naturally just from getting tattooed by him and I never got that opportunity from anybody else right so that's how I got my connection with the guy who I got my first tattoo from yeah it Pricks yeah Dave log he we worked at Pricks yeah yeah at the time yeah you know and so when somebody like actually goes out of their way for you like I don't know I saw at that age I didn't really my dad's a great guy and and he's you know a huge influence on my life you know but but I didn't really have like anybody else you know and so for me being like a young man having somebody else in the world actually given you an opportunity like that and I it was like a cool Uncle yeah and always felt that um like out of anything that I had done uh so far it was when I took those big leaps that I that I that I was satisfied in life you know when I didn't when I was afraid when I when I was too koi about something when I didn't take those chances I I felt lesser you know I felt like I you know Miss I should have talked to her I should have you know I didn't say the right you know all those little things that we you know um that we get anxiety from right you know but I felt that like whenever I took those big leaps whenever I got into snowboarding and I actually you know started going down diamonds and stuff and I and I got really you know confident you know that's when I had the most fun that's when I actually like enjoyed life and it and it really like colorized my world you know gave me direction so um giving that opportunity Dove right into it and yeah I I worked there for a little while Ray is a little difficult to deal with right you know um again like Outlaw Biker Outlaw Biker stuff going on right you know and um at the time I was working there it was uh eight hours a day I was required to be there for eight hours a day five days a week uh didn't get paid you know that wasn't a thing you know like uh you know my payment was the information I was given and every little bit like cherish like gold you weren't working at all then I wasn't oh no I was so I was working at the shop for 8 hours 40 hours a week right you know um but I had to make ins me had a girlfriend at the time and uh she was working too but you know I needed to make my half of rent I moved out when I was 15 I I started working when I was 15 and I moved out at 16 so I've always been you know Prett the most part on my own yeah um and uh and I had to make rent and everything so uh I started working at the airport at night for 10 hours a day four days a week so 410 yeah so most of the week I didn't sleep and then a couple days I got like eight hours right you know just broken up a little bit and it kind of I I did that for about a year and that was kind of my introduction into like what it takes to work hard you know uh I wanted to do this I wanted to be a T I saw that as like a direction I didn't know it was going to be this right you know I just saw it as like oh I get to draw on people this is fun like I like I don't need to go and work at Pizza Hut I don't need to like have this like corporate type job I don't need to be like in this like climb the ladder type world like I can just be myself I get to hang out with my friends I get to enjoy like the conversations with interesting people that we meet right like how cool is that it's a dream and um and I and I and I knew that like it was going to take a lot of effort to get there I was an okay artist but I I needed to work at it and um and I and I know some people have a natural you know and and I had the things that I had were I could Envision large space things that I can compose pretty well right you know but I needed to kind of refine that a little bit you know and uh and then obviously like the technical ability never was there you know um so um coming from like a comic book drawing and artwork I I was better at fine line stuff and I appreciate that but um so Ray I think saw like what I was capable of doing and helped me expand on that did that for about about a year and a half and like I don't know I let my old life kind of get back at me and I was like you know [ __ ] this I'm not earning [ __ ] I'm working my ass off I'm you know a year and a half into a three-year apprenticeship and I'm going nowhere I'm barely being taught anything you know it was that old school earn your earn your way type thing and so I left I started working um as a dishwasher on this remote island about a few hundred miles from Russia so you just bounced on their apprenti I I haven't been paying my car payment for eight months you know my girls been you know paying most the rent you know I'm I'm you know working you know at this other shop but then I also have these other you know responsibilities you know and and I can't afford you know this life right you know I think she was in between jobs too so it was it was it was getting difficult did you get to tattoo at all I did not okay at that time I think I did like a little BS on my leg or something like that you know but not really the first year it was cleaning toilets stpes and all that you know uh at the time it was mixing n ink you know building machines building needles building um uh grips and everything getting him prepped for the day buing everything like we didn't have um we we didn't obviously rotary machines didn't exist back then but you also like didn't have the ability to just order things online for the most part you could you could but it's also Alaska right so everything is like how are you guys acing everything 60% plus right you know okay so it's it's expensive to get things up there and you end up manufacturing a lot of stuff yourself you know just you know uh so you would buy you know bulk packs of needles you know loose needles and you would you know solder them all together you build the needle bars uh reuse needle bars and stuff you would uh you would build the actual tubes them you know we would you know had somebody cut you know the Ste down really yeah and then we' like kind of Forge the the tips a little bit this is around the time when like mags first came out before curve mags and everything so like we were kind of [ __ ] around with that yeah sorry we like flat stacked flat stacked and you separate them you know you just like you flat stack them and then weave like aade you know and then like heat it with a lighter and just kind of spread a little bit you know and uh yeah after you solder and Brea in flux for [ __ ] hours not very consistent you know but whatever you know and at that time you know I was you know drink and smoke and everything and I still to this day remember the taste of nicotine and flux you know like that was like I think old schooler tattooers know that you know burn in your nose yeah you know like I think that would do I think that would do well in tattoo shops like you know nicotine and flux flavored uh cinic candles yeah did they smoke in the shop then too no not him no he was a you know a straight edge guy he didn't he didn't drink drugs nothing no he was just a big hard ass guy you know yeah and uh you know so like I think that was also like good for me to kind of see like what I uh in in now even to this day like Envision as like a a good guy you know even though he was like living on the outside of like a normal society kind of thing but like what to represent yourself as you know who to be as a person you know being an honest decent genuine person you know who holds his own and protects his people yeah so um I left that um started working on the Head Island and everything and I I bought some tattoo equipment while I was out there and and I started tattooing the people it was like a camp of like 70 people was like this this thing out in the the Bearing Sea um it's crazy like it's in between the bearing government contract work man I was getting paid $40 an hour um wait it was uh it was $20 an hour to wash dishes out on this island uh full medical full dental everything you know stff I I had a 401 you know okay to wash dishes this is in the 90s washing you know so um yeah Nob brainer right and uh every dollar that I invested into there for a wi I think I think it was like I think it was up to even my whole check they would match it so like I didn't do that you know but I I think it was a half my check so I can invest half my check into my 401 they would match it on top of that so I did that you know not the full amount but I think I did like 10% or something like that um and that got me a little bit more mindful about you know money and and handling money and so yeah anyway I I I opened up a little tattoo shop out there you know you did yeah that was my very first private Studio [ __ ] yeah yeah before I was uh you know so again like this whole like you need to do the apprenticeship you need to go through these old ways like I I opened a shop like when I was like 19 you know [ __ ] desert where there's no there's no opportunity to go tattoo from anybody else you know I had it locked down I had the Monopoly on that island um yeah and so I did a lot of [ __ ] up tattoos on some on some drunk people out there and uh good times out of like a like a legit retail space or did you house like no basically it's all like uh uh government dorms and so you are issued a dorm and and uh and because I what I was going to do the uh the lady who was you know who would you know set you up the room you know she was like oh okay well I'll give you the room next to you you know so like basically I had like two hotel rooms kind of yeah oh okay it's basically like four a join uh two adjoining rooms next to two adjoining rooms so I had like yeah it was pretty sweet so if everybody was getting paid good were you charging like decent rates 100 bucks or whatever just some random [ __ ] doing some wolvves and like eagles yeah yeah and uh yeah tribal Buffalo and okay it you I was going to tribal back in the day you know that's what I could accomplish you're drawing all that [ __ ] on or like yeah yeah hand drawing it there's no stencil machine something yeah that's there's no like wireless printers or anything like that you know so yeah we had the hectograph pencils and uh uh hectograph ink and stuff and so so we would actually like you know kind of draw it with that draw with the pen um and and just kind of wing it you know yeah the most part you know I think that was even before people started doing Sharpies like this is weird right you know kind of think about that it's kind of odd but um yeah I you know so after after working a real job and it was a good job and I enjoyed it it was fun you know and I think I moved from dishwashing to like uh shipping and receiving so I was uh operating front loaders and you know all that and lifts and everything and so I was taking things off of planes and whatever you know and so it it became like a real fun job but isolation all that you know he said on shimia that um the guy who sold me on going out there he's like he's like oh there's you know there like 70 to 100 people there and like it's it's nice it's it's an island it's an isolated island and there's a girl behind every tree it's crazy and I was like wild and I go out there there's no [ __ ] trees out there single yeah no I actually I yeah there's a girl behind every tree I looked this dumb little I need to [ __ ] dishwash her it's a it's a crazy Place uh shimia Alaska to look it up it's the Forgotten War it's where Japan occupied America and it's a part of the history US History that's just not talked about um because Japan actually occupied US Territory and held it for a while so at to agatu shimia uh these Island chains were conflicted over around the time of Normandy I think it was like the second highest kill rate uh in World War II uh and it was from the Pacific side right you know and so we also had like you know the Guam thing all that you know but like this was this was the Alaskan version and it was us fighting against the Japanese and it was both of us fighting the US and the Japanese fighting against the elements right it was so bad there bearing seed is rough and the Pacific where it meets there two different actual bodies of water with different temperatures and so there's a massive um Collision that happens with these huge waves it looks like a big along the bearing straight it's it looks like boiling water like when you look out in the ocean it looks like m massive boiling water with these two Ocean Sea meats you know whoa yeah there's a shelf under there but it's like something to do with like the temperature change in the direction of the current you know yeah but it's it's creepy you know there's wrecked ships out there there's wrecked oil tankers wrecked fishing did you do a lot of like exploring and [ __ ] when you're there exped ordinances so there's Mine Fields everywhere so there's only so much you know that you can explore there's a few like Jade mines out there that you would climb into but they only go back like 20 30 feet or so you know and out nothing you know it's kind of creepy um but uh but yeah it was an adventure and uh and working out there uh for a little while um I I missed it you know I got like a little taste of it doing that and I I called Ray and I I know apologized and I was like you know you know I'm just whatever it takes I'm gonna I'm gonna you know tank everything off who cares you know I'm just gonna I'm just G to drive this so I went back into tattooing actually no back up there was something else that trying to trigger this so I went back the Anchorage yeah so I uh I got back into my old life you know being just a degenerate and being you know just raising yourself essentially like yeah raising myself getting in trouble guess I could talk about this I don't want to talk but you know so so I I got like involved in like a shooting right and so it was like you know and uh and yeah I was like killed somebody and so then I'm like on this point where it's like I'm this teetering point of life where it's like okay I'm on this I'm on this Edge where like my life is now going in a direction where there's not much of a future for it right you know and I could see that clearly the other things I I can't really you know say too much but like there's an involvement that I was really attracted to uh there there's a there's a there's a thing that I was really attracted to and it wasn't going in a good direction there was another thing that I was really attracted to that was going in a very positive direction the thing that was in a very positive direction was view as a negative in society yeah weird right yeah and uh and you know um you know my dad was my dad was good about it you know but uh you know mom didn't really care for it you know and she was she was okay about you it was she just didn't really see it as like a legitimate thing um you know and and a couple of my degenerate friends thought it was cool but like for the most part like it was not anything like it is nowadays you know it was definitely like you know shunned upon especially I mean remote like conservative you know Alaska at that time so yeah um you know after after the shooting thing I kind of like reev valuated life and I was you know I was like okay yeah that's that's not where I want to be you know that's that's I mean like I was in the right you know in the situation but it was also one of those like even if I was right you know I almost ended somebody yeah yeah it's a it's a brother it's a father it wasn't a father but you know it's somebody's son you know it's it could be a father in the future that sort of stuff and so that weighed heavy might for a long time and I saw that tattooing was actually something positive you know that like there's people that that come in and they're going through uh trauma they're going through something you know that's that's very hard to to overcome and we get to be that little um that little Gateway for their recovery not to you know not to give us too much um credit but you know but at least somebody there and it does help and and I've noticed that in difficult times in my life tattoos hurt a lot less you now because it it's it's weird it helps you it's a little vacation it helps you walk out of the the the little Loop that you're stuck in and so I get it you know but it also it also helps like signify these these different mile markers in life and it's a great um it's great documentary of of who you are you know it's a great Diary of who you are and so you know I wanted to be a part of that and this is this is again like before it became like what it is now but at that time you know I can kind of see what it was to me you know and I can kind of see what it was to a few people that that were getting it some of them were just cool pictures you know and I love that too you know um you know but of course but um yeah I I I got into Ray took me back took you back the state of Alaska did not okay yeah you know it's um for anybody who's watching Alaska uh they have the most ridiculous um Health Department up there they uh it was it was brought on an encouraged by a tat who was a gatekeeper and he was trying to keep you know artists from coming into the states so he made it very very difficult for future artists to come into the state or new apprentices to come in and since I had done a half an apprentice ship and he was aware of small town kind of stuff you know um he was aware that I wasn't at Rays anymore and then all of a sudden now I'm coming back and I'm saying like no I'm continuing my education and he said well you got to redo your three years right from today and it's like you know so he was like a bit of an old schooler three years was the state's regulation his it wasn't just regulation yeah no that wasn't it wasn't anybody's it was well it wasn't the states it was old schoolers um lar Allen you know um it was it was their uh way of kind of um I guess filtering out like the you know yeah yeah yeah and I get it you know and and it's and I do appreciate like somebody who is wanting to be a part of the business or being a part of the industry like somebody is going out of their way to Mentor you and it's not just sticking needles in people and drawing like that's cool and everything but it's also you know find a good character to kind of model after you know of somebody who you look up to in the industry great artist but he's an [ __ ] why would you want to be a part of that world right you know it should be a good person and then do them the justice of giving them you know your time you know and and that's what they they would desire you know and I think that's I think that's fair you know so but the thing is is I was doing that with Ry and and he was trying to keep new Talent out right you know and so even um pushed for the state to I not sure if it's still this way but you had to have a license from uh Alaska or an equally uh you know regulated state in order to work there so sheay couldn't work there I mean like so like some other you know brilliant tattoo or from somewhere else in the world can't work there because they have to go through a apprenticeship FR of them oh my God that's interesting you know what I mean like so it's it's just old schooler nonsense that's still there um so uh yeah I was kind of forced and not of forced but I I was not it was not going to work out for me staying up there and at that time Ray had opened a second shop in Idaho oh sh y so uh I was down in Boise for about a year that was your transfer transfer down to Boise that was my first time out of the state I think it was uh 19 I think it was no it was 20 years old the time um right after 911 basically okay that's how his old schoolers uh view things you know yeah I was tattooing during that yeah yeah I got cheap tickets to New York unfortunately oh wow yeah yeah I flew like the next couple cheap tickets the week after I bet yeah yeah um but so that was like my leaving Alaska and I always thought that I was going to go back but it just never really panned out I I was in Idaho for a year went really broke I think I was making like three $500 a month kind of thing you know tattoing at Rays tattooing at Rays you know sleeping on you know cou he bounc back and forth then for yeah he had he had another shop somewhere else and and so he's that guy you know like he's old Schooler and when you move to Alaska and Idaho you're you're doing that in you know for an intention you know like so like you're you're you're not you're a little bit more and at that time like departments didn't really communicate too well right you know so um you know like it's not really his name right you know but like you know so there's like he moved around a lot so um still does you know he's still around but yeah so um after that sent in Idaho um there's just it was a college town and it wasn't the the Boise it is today and uh I think there was like five shops there not doing great um I had a friend in in Vegas and and he he gave me an opportunity he said that the the guy he was working with um uh uh they they would hire me on you know and uh he said just uh mail me your portfolio how weird Okay um me your portfolio I'll show it to him and uh you know get your job so I started working at uh Wildside if you remember I remember the name but I don't know why I don't remember where it's it was shy um he was a okay I think it was Bandido uh so another Outlaw Biker Shop and uh yeah I think he had five shops in town all together it was Wildside and whatever else it was like whatever yeah but uh but yeah this is my first introduction I didn't even know what Vegas was to be honest like I'm so dumb like I didn't know was that was when that was like 2000 well after 911 so12 or something yeah yeah yeah yeah I think it was I think it was like the this the the January of 22 I got here and um you know like the apprenti with Ray and everything you know I you know I I don't you don't get like a card or anything you know me so like I got here and they're like oh you need to have a um you need to uh you know have an apprenticeship you know under one of the shops here and have somebody sign off on you or you need to be licensed artist in another state and I was like oh okay hang on a second I went to my house and I went home and then I I just you know typed up like you know Nolan graduated from his apprentiship blah blah blah blah blah you know and then I just sign it you know I was like here you go that's pretty badass like it yeah yeah yeah here's your card you know silly you know and the HP doesn't give they're just like cool there like yeah where's my $90 you thank you next please that's awesome it's so like what we hope that the health department does um I don't think that they do so much of I'm I'm kind of on the you know little little government you know type side of things you know um because I do think that there's like a a bureaucracy that is just made to generate to generate like income for themselves you know and uh and so what the health department does do I don't think they don't crack down on scratcher shops they don't crack down on you know uh you know what I mean like like the things that we would hope you know uh fish tanks on tattoo stations and stuff like little it's like the little things the gross stuff that people do you know it's like there's no like there's no morality questionnaire on there you know no carpet you're not supposed to have carpet in your station why not yeah I clean it every day you know got a Roomba so you jumped right into another biker shop jumped right into another biker shop you know the culture there of fun stories with that one too yeah cuz like I worked in a biker shop and it was was definitely like an excessive amount of I was working there my first time in Vegas and it was on H Sahara in Maryland Parkway okay um so that's a fun part of town yeah um and uh and the door locked at night I was uh I was working from Midnight until noon every day six days a week was because nobody wanted to work that shift and and again nobody wanted to work 12 you know 61 12 right you know but new here I don't have any friends I don't have anything to do got a gym membership and like a internet cafe membership thing play video games and I'd go to the gym Ando Mission too so you had one buddy here though so had one buddy yeah uh he left shortly afterwards and uh it was funny because he set me up with a roommate uh and uh and it was one of his buddies and I was like okay cool my buddy Randy was still friends today but I moved into ry's house and then ry's like hey I'm I'm leaving my I bought this house with my ex-wife she's moving back in I'm taking off and I was like I don't have any money he's like don't worry about it you can still pay her rent and then I was you know so I'm living in a first I don't know these people so it's odd working in a crazy ass biker shop crazy ass biker shop um that went from one Biker Shop to another and um I think uh I was at starborn for a little while with cornfed oh okay yeah um on the Strip so that was also interesting he's still around in he's in Boulder City now yeah I think he's still around bould yeah he's the one that opened the shop there the only shop i d drove by there yesterday and I'm like I know yeah I'm gonna go in there soon said what's up yeah yeah okay yeah he's all into painting and stuff now uh I went on tour with osfest with him oh okay yeah that was kind of wild touring with um a traveling you know metal like show awesome you know yeah yeah yeah uh I think it was um it was aie um it was um let me see slipnot it was gosh Demi ghoul um As I Lay Dying oh my God doesn't you know like uh yeah of the same hate breed I think was when they first came out you know and so you know we got to park our camper trailer thing next to all them and so we'd have like little barbecues at night and go and mushrooms and like fireworks and stuff with some of the bands otap and uh and and have like tattoo parties and hotel rooms you know like we tattoo parties eating mushrooms lighting fireworks off of the planes that land Best Day Ever dude how long did that go on for three and a half months okay yeah and you're pretty much working every day like every other day so every day it was like set up early in the morning and some places busier than others but for the most part you're like bang out like 20 tattoos in a day ridiculous you know uh AC didn't work half the time you know it's crammed you know and a hot like metal you know thing in the middle of summer yeah you know and so like you're sweating all over your tattoo and it's nasty and it's intoxicated as [ __ ] so yeah okay yeah yeah uh if how does that work though like you like cornfed new like a tour manager or some [ __ ] and they're like yeah just you can cruise with us or so somebody else had the gig before they got hemmed up by with from selling a lot of cocaine to some of the band members okay and so they could no longer do the tour and they uh tatto and cocaine that's weird I know a handful of co-workers together that buiness apparently uh that's how you work so hard so they they I guess he knew had had known cornfed uh in the past and and so he was kind of hemmed up with you know court stuff so he couldn't do the next tour gave the gave the thing to to Fed oh the whole rig and everything the whole rig take might have sold it to him but like he gave him the you know the contract whatever Keys have been passed on we did it and it was God I I haven't talked to the guys that were on that trip with me but it was Ill planned from the get-go you know and so it was he was it was wild I mean by the time we got back that RV you do leaf springs in the back you know on a solid axle but like the leaf springs on one side were broken the lights didn't work so there's no brake lights on the thing the mechanism that drops down the the stabilizer you know when it's not up all the way it makes a beeping noise uh they were up all the way but the beeping noise wouldn't go away so we're driving around this thing and by the end of the show it's dented on the side lights don't work constant beeping you're driving at 3 in the morning de move the tables and [ __ ] to tattoo out of there or just we actually we're actually pulling like a food truck that was kind of converted into a tattoo shop like it had water and stuff you know it had like a sink certain places wanted you that sort of thing so it had power in there we had a generator and and like some of the places we actually didn't have uh the clientele we couldn't work you know for whatever reason you know uh uh I forget some of the places we went to I think it was Kansas they wouldn't let us tattoo cuz I didn't have a high school diploma you know like weird little stuff like that you know in Florida we had to have a doctor go in and see how we set up things and see if we're like safe enough in inside so the promoter obviously had all their responsibilities and responsible our responsibility show changed okay every other day every other day so one day working your butt off uh tattooing and you know setting up breaking down and then the next day absolute boredom driving from one city to the next you know yeah it was cool it was fun um lot of great stores to get into with that but yeah I want to hear some know like train it's a party train uh we yeah got some tackle one you know we stopped you know we're kind of frustrated with the traveling thing and so we convinced them to stop and get some tackle and and uh went out fishing next to this like little power plant which I you know I'm thinking like The Simpsons right you know and like there's like the Jing thing with like you know water and so we're sitting there fishing off there and but it's a real high uh it's a real high current you know undertoe kind of thing and there's a little girl uh with her family on the other side of the embankment she fell in somehow and like you know me and you know some of the guys like know there's already people in the water and they swam out to get her but pulling her back in like there was such an undertoe it was difficult and So like um you know we Robert and I we we actually got out there and help them pull her back in and stuff you know good Lord yeah yeah it's just all the like little things that go on on a trip yeah that's yeah yeah wild traveling across country is [ __ ] great though it puts things in perspective so you've been a RoR since day one dude just one my dad was military so we traveled you know we end up in Alaska but for the most of my life we were like every four years moving to a new place I was born in Ohio moved to Japan uh lived uh uh in Florida Washington Alabama Alaska you did live in Japan you said yeah for a little bit a little guy little Flash B memories of the place i' go back God great yeah that would be great but one day you know but yeah I've I've been to every state now I think other than Maine um but I've lived in in a lot of different places I love it I I think that's the I think that's the Jewel of Life you know if you can travel I get the most out of it and and I feel like I feel like I'm more cultured from it you know um especially like living in a place like Alabama you know like we were living in you know BF Alabama uh with and uh you know so like living around that versus living around people in Panama City versus living around you know people in Washington versus Alaska versus Vegas Texas you know like everybody has like such a great opinion about their neighboring state you know or like oh Californians are always like this New Yorkers are always like that Texas are always like this it's like you've never been there you know what are you talking about sh ass opinion go you know they're not like that you in Texas it's like oh these Californians are moving here and they're driving you drive like czy been there it's czy over there but this is a different crazy this a whole another type of crazy you know so it's it's always like you know oh my neighbor's so horrible you know my neighboring State's so horrible and whatnot you know but every place has its own flavor and everything I don't know there's there's I don't know and that's I don't know so I want to keep traveling I want to keep going I'm doing like this like guest spotting traveling uh convention circuit stuff I don't know we have such a fortunate life to be able to allow this you know a lot of people don't don't get this opportunity um you know so with the kids now I want to raise them in that world and bring them up in normal thing yeah you got dude you got three so you you'll have three boys twins that are just a year old now and then I've got they're only a year for some reason I thought oh my God I don't even walking they're climbing they're taking off knobs on stuff I wasn't expecting all this kind of stuff you know so like all my little barriers that I put up there trash you know uh yeah now he's at the they're at the reaching level that nothing can be on the counter you know already and uh if they grew up if they grow up anything like me you know like you know Val has her hands full you know it's like it's like there's there's going to be stitches there's going to be broken bones you know there's going to be a lot of fighting within the household holes in the wall you know there's going to be broken things in the wall you know a car is going to get crashed or flipped or something you know something's going to happen uh you know they're going to gravitate to motorcycles apparently you yeah you you've been riding motorcycles for a real long time that's another thing you know and I don't know if it's like a if it's like a genealogy thing you know like maybe my great ancestors passed down maybe they were horse riders back in the day so me I never I never rode a bike up until I was uh mid 20s I think okay never got into it never had an interest in it I had bicycles and stuff you know and they're cool but like I never had an interest in getting a dirt I you know root to friends dirt bike you know yeah but I never like desired it you know I was never into Motocross never into anything like that yeah we got a sport bike and and it's you're flying you know it's the closest you're ever going to get to Flying you know you're sitting on this thing sailing around the world you know sailing around the country and everything I got into uh sport bikes you know um you know goture bikes later right yeah like we call speed's fun um and all that you know but at some point you run out of road and road Sur Services change you know on a daily so even if you know what that road is you know it it changes so you can't be confident in Corners tracks are the way to go track days um but then it's the same you know circuit you know and so that's fun too but like I kept running out of roads I started doing like massive road trips on sport bikes on sport bikes road trips okay y That's um I just uncomfortable as [ __ ] or what not really you know get out you know every hour you got to get up or every 100 miles you got to stop in gas anyways and so I would actually take my helmet off relax get something to drink you know and yeah you know kind of make it comfortable um but I I went from that to Adventure bikes to you know the Dual Sport stuff mainly because I kept running out of roads and you'd see all these little dirt trails go off there and I'm I'm I'm pretty handy I I'm pretty good at figuring things out you know and tooling around with things so so working on Motors and changing tires and changing you know um uh chains and everything and and just tinkering and figuring out problem I'm I'm pretty decent with it you know and I'm not you ever done any like tours on your motorcycle like a tattoo tours like go from spot to spot that's that was on the uh list of things to want yeah no we had an artist come through years ago that rode his bike his bicycle from the east coast to the West Coast and went from tattoo time I think I'm doing something cool somebody just one-ups you he straight rolled up to our shop with the [ __ ] saddle bags his road bike and had been sleeping off the [ __ ] highway all the way like I got to get him on here one day too but so I thought that would be fun like your adventure bike and then set up but you got you got your hands full right now so yeah getting back to the Overland lifestyle stuff now I'm trying to do that with an Overlander you know so I'm trying to do like camping way [ __ ] crazy impressive it's like so it's a it's a little mini home it's I got a mini home a tiny home on the back of a of a crazy aggressive off-road vehicle yeah and I can take it damn near anywhere my Tacoma can go other than the size of the you still have your Tacoma too Co y so the Tacoma pretty capable you know uh for what you know uh I think it's it's an awesome platform but uh I got a 2500 uh with the camper on the back and so I did I put a lot into that one a lot of thought and um it's a bigger heavier vehicle I think I'm at 14 Grand 14,000 pounds yeah it's like a flatbed on the back right so you can take that whole cabin off I saw when I was in Austin I you show me yeah I was like [ __ ] craziest thing so how you going to put all three boys in there and then we're going to tour tattoo three you need your own [ __ ] TV show and then yeah I'm working on it I I've started that little Lu mama is a nurse right so has the education of it or whatever yeah yeah so she's she's she's seen some things she was working in uh yeah she's working in the emergency room for a while so she's she's comfortable you know with with that and she asked for boys and she got them and I don't know if she knows what she asked for you know it's like they're going to be peeing on things they're going to be you know dismantling everything you know you think that thing doesn't come apart they'll figure out how to get it apart you sff socks everywhere disturbing these Tu socks hard oh my God yeah so yeah I I don't know I'm 45 now just starting this road that so many people have been on for a while and like I'm envious of the time that they got when they were younger but I'm also super excited about where I'm going with it you know and I don't know I know that children kind of uh change your perspective and kind of give you a little bit more purpose um at younger years of life you know and and kind of U for you to be less selfish and and be more driven towards family and I get that you know I don't know how great of a father I would be me personally at 20 years old yeah and so I for my dad like uh you know as little you know I don't know if I could have done as well with job is he has done you know like you know and so the the the disagreements that we have and everything now that I'm actually a dad and seeing yeah what it actually takes you know as somebody who's stable in life you know who has like who's been able to pursue his dreams and his goals and be able to pursue you know like I I found tattooing and I desired that and so I pushed into that as hard as I could I couldn't do that with I well I I don't know if I would have been able to do that on the same level that you know I might have always second guessed where I could could have gone with it traveled the world I've been on TV the the eight master thing I was gone yeah right like uh the oest tour like it's three months you don't want to be away from no for sure you know you to be in that environment either right you know so finding a balance between your extreme passions for your career and you're also extreme passions for your family I I always exploring the motorcycle thing you hearing about how people find their balance I was I would go out for like weeks uh to to Baja you know I would go out for like weeks to Canada I would go across country on these bikes and stuff you know and I got to like really solo the world in in our continent you know yeah and and I got to I got to enjoy that I think there's a tattoo Dan um he's been doing it now for a while I've been following crazy Adventures you know he's in the Middle East he's all over the place so he's a tattoo too tattoo I think he's out of Nevada too um I'll have to try to link you with him he would be a great person talk yeah that's but um but yeah no he's he's living that dream and you know and so well I'm envious of I'm envious of a lot of people's lives you know like I'm just super excited about life you know and it's like it's like oh that's cool the way you're doing it that's awesome that's a different spin on it's fun to pull like an artist pull from like everybody you know and like I was having breakfast with my friend this morning and and you know like the the people who go like oh must be nice and it's like no no no we all live in the same we live on the same Planet like you figure it out a lot of opportunities that you know not a lot of people in this world have you know and and yeah there there are some circumstances like the the the ink master thing uh somebody well somebody reached out to me about that and and there was like oh it's so cool what you're doing blah blah blah blah blah and I was I was like no you know like it's it's for everybody if you want to get in this get in the industry get into tatto get into you know whatever your Pursuit is purs your happiness whatever you know I was just chiming off on on DMS with somebody and um and he's like well I don't have that opportunity and and I was like no everybody has opportunity yeah he's like he's like my mom's really sick I'm the only one that can take care of her he like oh okay yeah yeah so you know appreciate what you do have and then expand on that as much as you can the ink master thing came with uh well Christian uh I I he was an apprentice at the shop that I first started at Wildside and so when I came in there you know I'm like I'm a known tattooer you know but I wasn't you I was you know friendship too you know I just I just forged I just forged better you know you know and so like I you know it's like oh here's this artist from Alaska unah who you he's coming to work at our shop kind of thing you know and like it this whole thing and I was like yeah it's like a I lost all my pictures you know I lost all my portfolio you only got like these five tattoos I've done you know you know from some Island out in the middle of nowhere you know trial's good you know yeah uh but so they like in master reached out to you or was it was on it before and um he was on whatever season it was but he he was on there I think he he plays third I believe he played up pretty high and and his personality is one that creates a lot of drama it's so yeah Ink Master love it or hate it what it is is it's another piece of art you know television is Art right you know so curation there's a lot of inv you know so there's a producer involved um there's lighting there's audio there's video you know and so there's a lot of talent that's involved in it to curate something with a narrative uh so it's not necessarily scripted but it's definitely cards are a little bit stacked you know so like going into the entire show more or less they have an idea of who's going to end up in the top right you know um life art is contrast right black and white right so like you have uh the way the reason why things are bright white you know is because they're next to something that's dark black right you know so um if this was gray it wouldn't be you know so like uh so we see contrast and if you have a bunch of amazing tattooers on One show there's no contrast right you know and so if you have a bunch of crap tat you know there's no contrast right you know it becomes dull it's not that interesting you need that drama right so you need the the guys that are just busting their ass trying to trying to get ahead and they're competing against with like you know big huge you know know uh you know convention names and stuff you know and these people that are well known and and competing on that level it it gives it gives people a fair opportunity to be able to um Step It Up and I think what it did for me uh is is it was such a light on the work that I was doing because I was I was really I was really you know I was working at what I was doing I was considerate you know was I was definitely like you know pushing myself but to have that level of a spotlight on it I was like oh wow no and then to see um other people you know counter like going through the same stresses it was different you know and it and it it definitely it definitely made me more aware and it made me really want to step up what I was doing and at that time honestly I was kind of on the I hadn't done a convention before I haven't done a I haven't done a single convention I haven't done a guest spot I I bar watch television I'm not a I'm not much of a TV Watcher you know I I draw I read I you know but uh so uh uh reality shows and stuff you know I think they're fine you know but I I just didn't watch them you know yeah so he they reached out they reached out to him telling him that there was going to be a a new team you know sort of a shop and and he needed a partner right and uh I think at that time he he was friends with Vic Vivid and um and he was working at his shop part time I'm not sure he wasn't like an owner of the shop but he was like friends with him working with him and I ran into him at this like hipster coffee shop that opened up next door and so I was going to get this hipster coffee and uh and and I was looking I was like Chris [ __ ] hey congratulations on what you're doing that's awesome you know I'm happy for you job you know cool right you know got my coffee you know left you know chatted up a bit went and looked at Vic's Shop awesome place you know um uh he's probably somebody anyway but he's he's he's he's he's a wild dude you know he's fun but uh but yeah so like you know talking to him about it and everything and he changed numbers and every and whatnot and he reached out to me said hey they just contact me about doing this you know um this Shop Challenge thing you know shop War thing and know would you be interested I was like well shoot I never really thought about you know um I kind of waited a little bit and and like I said I mean like I was so comfortable in what I was doing in in my client at the time but I was was not really that fulfilled anymore and I don't think I was challenging myself enough I think that's what life is right you know uh uh challenging yourself and meeting you know those challenges right you know and so like I was not doing that and I was not going to conventions I wasn't not that winning a trophy means you know but it's just putting yourself out there and and to be judged and to and to compete amongst friends you know and then to have somebody weigh in on what you're doing that you're proud about and and so I think that's the joy that I get out of doing conventions now but uh by the time I didn't have that and I wasn't working in a shop anymore and I I was doing like a little Studio I'm sorry your private Studio it was like a little ghetto private Studio like right right here like right off the sunset or no was it no it was uh near the Palms it was near the Palms so yeah it was near shop it it was like above a mattress uh Warehouse thing okay but it was you know it was uh um Victor whitmill guy who tattooed Tyson and stuff yeah got them too confused yeah he uh it was his studio uh that I got you know so like uh it you made friends with him over the years and everything but like he uh he was you know he did that lawsuit against uh Paramount or whoever it was you know and so he was flush he didn't need tattoo anymore and he you know I think somebody took it over for a little while um um and then I and I bought off of him but like um but yeah it was just like a little hole in the wall place you know it was great you know for me yeah uh uh but I think that sapped all the energy out of me you know honestly like it it I didn't have like like what I had at Studio 21 I didn't have like that camaraderie I didn't have like that energy that you get from artists working next to each other yeah yeah yeah pushing each other talking [ __ ] you know and so I didn't realize like how necessary that was until you know and I was able to pursue other things and get in my own head and and focus on certain things but I found like there's a massive hole in in my life and in my develop now and so when the the whole inkmas thing came around it was just kind of like oh okay wait a minute no I haven't done guest spots I haven't done conventions I haven't been on TV you know like if I could be on TV right but like I haven't done the TV thing I haven't um I haven't really put myself out there and so I'm not stressing myself I'm not I'm not challenging myself in the ways that I was before you know and um and so opportunity came and I said why not right you know yeah well in order to be on the show um you know you have to be a bit of a character yeah um and and so knowing that they do like these it's funny they do like these uh video interviews and stuff and so they have you do a video uh take a bunch of pictures and with costumes right you know of clothing so this is what I look like in a blue shirt this is what I look like in whatever okay no [ __ ] v-neck you know I got stuck I got stuck as the v-neck guy you know it's so silly it's so silly we got things people don't know yeah we have to have a guy in a bright green shirt that's not what they wear you know it's you know people wear black shirts with you know you know what I mean like they don't so um tattooers do but yeah you know and then so if you watch the show like there's uh you know there's a there's an array of of of different you know colors sizes and people and stuff and it's same thing with their shirts like and so when they line people up you can't have two people with blue shirts next to each other it's too confusing on TV you know so they're very they're very particular it's an art right you know and they're trying to uh you know have that contrast that you know and so I totally get it but when they did the interviews I was just I'm I'm no I'm a chill normaly going dude I try to minimize stress in life and I just try to enjoy it for what it is you know uh uh you for the moments as I are uh you know uh stoping chair try to gas you up a little bit and like try to I was yeah no I was I was on tent I was like oh you went in there like ready to I was a personality really yeah because that's you know like so I was just whoever I could be on 10 and then I knew like as soon as I got there I'm like okay I'm back to me you know but you know it's just it was just for me to to be able to knowing you know because I didn't watch the show but I did watch like a few clips of Christian and I was like oh wow this is okay I get myself into this is crazy you know and so I was like okay so you know me on 10 12 even and um and and so then they go through this whole process they do a psych evaluation right you know well so they tell you the psych evaluation is like oh so we don't want crazy people on here you know and so we don't you're gonna be sleeping next to each other and stuff you know want some guy in the middle of the night KN in you you know whatever you know so I was like oh yeah appreciate that good job guys don't keep out the psychopath yeah um you go on the show and like no they let them in like for sure like they're there they want them to be there know them they want them to be there you know and uh and yeah what tattoo or isn't right you know that's like half of us really actually so going out there and and doing the psych evaluation thing and sign this massive contract the psych evaluation is 500 questions to answer in a half an hour you know kind of thing and so you're just spitballing but what it was it was basically like a Briggs Meyers test sandwiched in between like some goofy questions like so when the voices tell you to strangle your partner what do you do you know kind of thing you're like that's weird who would answer that correctly you know like um you know but then it's also like when you walk into a room where do you stand you know kind of thing yeah and I was like oh I remember this like oh so what they're trying to do is they're trying to they're trying to gauge uh chess pieces you know yeah and so they're basically trying to put like two aggressive confrontational people into a very situation you know so they're trying to trying to develop a story line right you know yeah fair you know but it's like going in there and seeing that um the the interview process is is uh two weeks or three weeks sometimes behind so you'll do the no no if you know the the scenario but basically like each episode is three days worth of filming the first day is The Flash challeng you wake up they mic you um you have the microphone on you the entire time and you go through the flash challenge thing it's probably the funner part of the whole deal you know cuz you're playing with Goofy stuff you never played with everybody's having fun nobody's taking seriously not really you know they make it out to be serious but it's not you know um the timel thing not really you're just trying to figure out how to play with this stuff you know so nobody really you know it's like oh that kind of looks like a face you know like um but but then the next day is the tattoo day that's cake yeah you're tattoo you know what you're doing the whole idea of like um like oh you only got six hours it's like yeah you do a 4 Hour Tattoo you know that's all you do like you do a four hour tattoo and then you have an hour and a half to polish you know and then you have room in case the person can't sit right you know so that's how that's at least how Christian I approached everything okay was like you know just playing a three-hour tattoo or a 4our tattoo um and then both of us are fairly quick you know I'm more I'm I'm more efficient at color and he's more efficient black and gray um and I was okay black and gray but at that time you know like that's where our strength word so we kind of just played to that the third day was literally everything that you hate about you know the the reality TV show thing yeah on slowmo all day long so it's just it's like 8 10 hours of like interviews and going in front of the judges and this and that but it's just grueling yeah and so when you're out there the the judges you know you go out there on TV it's like it's like oh yeah you you screwed up on the blue you did the line weight wrong and and that's why this tattoo is horrible you should be out of here right um and then it'll C to an interview and it'll be like the Guy saying like man I hope they don't call me out on the feet you like the feet like I was so worried about the feet when I got it done you know that interview was taken two weeks post right so he knew he screwed up the feet he knew they were gonna call him out on the blue you know and so he's talking about that in a post interview as if it's that moment right you know mine it's you know when you're when you're in it I didn't know this stuff about TV so I'm just production and so I'm now getting introduced to this stuff and it's like wow okay I'm trying to like think my way there's no way around it you know there's there's no way you know just do and I came out there just to do good tattoos and and I just F I just felt like okay well I'll just get as far as I can by doing like solid work is you know yeah and you know and in this environment and everything and I just wasn't a confrontational character I wasn't like I guess I'm weird of my own way but like uh it wasn't at the time this show was eight shops with eight returning veteran shops and each each each episode they were eliminating one veteran shop and or one shop and they were introducing another shop each shop would have two people so uh eight shops 16 shops 32 people right you know so there's a lot of people on my season right so there's a lot of um airtime that would go towards the most interesting things you know that that are in a show like that right you know and so like the earlier shows where there were 16 contestants you know those 16 got you know a decent amount of time for each one but in this one there was so many you know that it was like um people were kind of creating things to you know to kind of sell their character you know and it's what I didn't like about the the um and not every season was like that but mine in particular I think was kind of more like that you know and so I I wasn't I'm not a confrontational guy I'm I'm a very like you know I I I'll say it how it is from my point of view you know but I'll I'll speak my peace you know and I I live the life right you know so yeah um you know so like that that sort of stuff I really wasn't uh I didn't really play into you know but I know that was the character and stuff I just I didn't want to have to deal with a Fallout of of that sort of thing and I also the type of clientele that you do get from people watching that show if if you that type of person you know same type of you know like how it works in real life any always guys so how how was the fall well I mean the the show was fun and everything like I said I mean it was it was crazy doing the whole thing the the three days and everything um the the the whole pentry of it all was was weird you know I wasn't used to it you know it was it was fun and exciting the light and all the clientele kind of like the clientele big rush after that essentally clientele half the clientele was just fans of the show most of them didn't have tattoos yeah most of them wanted a t-shirt which is awesome you know like it's just I heard somebody say like you know no I don't have any tattoos I not interested in getting them but I I just it's just so cool like seeing like all these wild characters like out there doing weird stuff I was like I get it did you have a website and everything down where or like at that time were you selling shirts of your something do social media and and internet and everything no I didn't um no I had um uh I was working with Vick and uh and I was uh you know working at his shop I was trying to promote his shop as much as possible and so I I told him like I'll I'll you know stick here for a year and um and and just try to drive traffic towards your new studio yeah um you know it it's like he I think he was working for working with Robert foe before and and this was like his first getting out sort of thing what was his what's his basil it it is Basilica okay that's I thought yeah so he's like right down the street oh okay yeah he's literally yeah okay shoot I got to try stop in there and talk to literally like pull out take a left and you're right there he's he's a fun character he's he's good dude but uh yeah no it was it was definitely worth it um client cell for sure like um the one of the things that I wanted to do the show for was again like you know put myself in that stress but also to now um go start doing conventions go start doing guest spots and so since then i' gone you know to to to Europe I've gone to um UK uh Ireland and stuff and I've done guest spots there and conventions and every and that's what I was hoping for in in all this was to try to get a name out there where I could you know FasTrack and almost almost a way uh to to get to see these shows you know I thought it would be so cool to put a sticker on you know somebody from you know Belgium or something you know that was so cool like to be able to do something like that and uh you know it's it's always awesome when they come here you know and you're like like oh where you from you know you're you're coming to visit from who knows where um like that's fun you know but I'm just a I'm just a again like a fan of life and a fan of culture and and I just love interacting with that I love traveling so being able to go to like Scotland being able to go to Ireland and UK uh to travel with all of those opportunities really opened up because of in master I mean were these other convention promoters essentially just trying to pull more people they actually reach out to you yeah you know because it it helps promote their uh their convention this is a time maybe that's a while back now but um it was a time where conventions were I don't know they still do it you know but but it it does help right you know so it's like we have like x amount of like it legitimize their convention to the local you know Americans to happen like as the ink master people were coming in and all a sudden their Booth is right next to you and there's like 20 people surrounding them just staring at them I was like yeah what the [ __ ] that's weird the power of this TV is [ __ ] is really insane it's insane when you're when we were doing the finale I think they said that there's 25 million viewers yay yeah that's 50 million million eyeballs on you yeah insane yeah to think um you know so that's that's weird um worth it totally it was fun um the experience of it you know um I I don't know if I would I would go back and do it a thousand times I don't know if I would go and do it right now again like you know prods with the kids and stuff you know and it was it was a cool experience to have but um but it is a time away from from you know and and at that time yeah anyways but like um time away from kids and time away from like your your girl and everything it's just not I don't know in my world right now that was season nine season nine oh okay I was asking meta as some questions about you just to see what would pop up and it said you're from Pensacola Florida and you have a tattoo shop there and you were an inkmas on season two oh telling me some random ass [ __ ] and I was like this is all not true he's the one who started the blue hairr we I I don't want to go like too far down the hole we yeah about the AI stuff but we were kind of talking about that and like using your I don't know I kind of would like to talk about your style your approach to tattooing is so different from everything that I was kind of brought up I'm I'm like a black outline guy and like color and stuff and your stuff is so incredibly unique and different from everything I know so I'm like I'm fascinated about your process and your how you approach and we talked a little bit about how you're kind of using at times the AI tool just to like expose your client to ideas uh on a basically like a kind of stuff and so I'm almost three decades in right you know and so I've seen it Trend when websites came out you know it was shunned upon you know it's like this guy's got a website look at this who is this guy I specifically remember getting a call of an older School tattooer like sh left a shitty voicemail because I had a website yeah it's like it's like hey you bought a full page ad out of this tattoo Life Magazine what are you talking about read your you wrote that you all those articles back in the day you know written in tattoo magazines was written by the guy who worked there you know like it was basically you would submit pictures and pay for a full page promotion and they would like highlight your shop right you know and so it's like give me that you know like we know how it works now there's some uh researcher out there going to all these shops and he just found this magical shop in whatever you know like but I mean there is that too you know but you know for the most part like in the early days when people were like sham that sort of thing they were shaming uh rotary machines there were shaming iPads they were shaming yeah all of it you know um and the thing it's like hey if it works for you keep doing you man it's awesome like if you want to keep doing it that way cool awesome you know but like if there's somebody who's figured out a way to to ease the process for them why not right you know to to allow for more of a creative space for it why not the rotary machines and when they first came out this is this is my big learning lesson in life um I I was using coils forever um not even like a loyal to the coil guy you know it's just I was so familiar with and I love tinkering with things and I love tuning and I love you know machine building and stuff and so I I I really really loveed that part of the industry but it was weighing on me when we went to disposables when we went to like we got rid of those big heavy like full pound like grips you know like when we got away from those and started going with disposables that would flex and they were lightweight and everything you had this like 16 o weight countering your your wrist and it was destroying me and I was down to like 2 or 3 hours a day of tattooing and and it was just finally like I couldn't figure out coils I I messed with them you know what machine works you know spending like you know $600 on each one whatever you know and so I I made the transition I took all my machines and I I took them home and I left myself with a Cheyenne uh pen yeah and uh and I made myself learn it and I'm not the proudest of those tattoos that year you know uh but it was uh it was me pushing myself to in an comfortable way to to relearn that was a huge lesson for me you know to not like stay in my old ways uh because I was debilitating myself where I wasn't actually able to even properly you know you know like I wasn't in it because I was in wrist pain and everything uh thinking about carpal tonor surgery all that you know damn yeah yeah you know and so getting into the rotary machine like I can now 12 hours I'm good you know I can still like like conventions I'll do like 36 hours and fine you know so it's just at that point it's just other things that start hurting you know but it's like my rist 100% fine okay you know and so so yeah it was it was a bit like about you know it was a bit of a wakeup call to like oh yeah don't don't be that guy and I never was like a gatekeeper type of person you knowbody had questions I I gave my most honest feedback on certain things you know it's like this works this doesn't work from my point of view so when iPads came out when drawing tablets came out when wayc coms came out first and um I played around with them it's a lot more Tech it's a lot more this it's lot more of that I saw the benefit of it um but I really really started using it right before um The Ink Master stuff and uh and back then I there was a couple other apps besides procreate but anyways like it was it was neat it wasn't drawing on paper it wasn't as satisfying as drawing on paper or painting on cannabis but it was a different type of Art and I I love the fact that you can you know layer in a bunch of stuff before getting into tattooing I was working in graphic design high school and out of high school like in between like one of the jobs that I had you know while working at the in the apprenticeship and so I had a little bit of a background in Photoshop and illustrator and stuff so um it was fun for me like it was like a different way to play with with art right yeah and you can compose so many different things you can layer stuff different you can mask things um collage so when they came out I I started leaning into it more and more and I started composing pieces where I would even take a picture of their arm right and then this is like new back then but like you take a picture of their arm and I could show them like this is what it looks like on you right and then also for me you get married into this idea of like oh this is GNA look great and you stick it on you're like yeah why does that look not look right you know it's because you're now seeing it from a distance you know on somebody and and it doesn't in your head it looks like one way and and nine times out of 10 99 times out of 100 it it works but then like sometimes you get there and you're like oh no yeah I didn't think the hand was going to be on the back side of his arm you know I know whatever it's going to be I didn't know the sword was going to be right in the cck you know or whatever it may be and so it just looks off you know um or you know uh like doing people and like having like their their feet at the bottom of the you know so then like when they're wearing a long sleeve you just see toes you see feet you know you know what I mean like there's like there's certain things that you know if you have somebody like holding on to something you know and there guys saying it and then but like when they wear a shirt then all you see is like a weird little wiener hanging out arm you know it's like that kind of stuff you know and um and so when you actually see it on the person it's like oh wow now I need it so having it on the iPad I can actually quickly that that's not even a question anymore you can actually just cycle through a bunch of different ideas on body parts and now with like 3D stuff and waycom you can actually like you know um uh masket on or uh um you know whatever on there and you can actually see what it looks like in in a dimensional space right you know so for clients I haven't played with any that I want to do that yeah I yeah I can [ __ ] maybe not this time but I yeah yeah I'll walk you through like the little stuff I but um it's just it's just a nice way to show somebody's like yeah no this is like my idea here's what it looks like you know from standing in front of you turning your arm this is how it looks you know from all different angles you know and this is why I want to try to do this cuz it tells the story it walks you through the whole piece and and and again like I like composing large format stuff so when the realism color realism stuff started coming out the realism like mashup type stuff started coming out I I did gravitate more towards that and it was more of a painterly style the traditional mindset that like uh a hard lines bold will hold um and all that still stays true and it does not take much to um to bring those things back to life right you know so traditional uh Japanese traditional you know American whatever you know 20 years down the line you know you you really don't need much time to to bring the thing back to 100% right you know realism takes a little bit more you know and because when you're doing realism you're layering so many different colors together that um the subtle little differences between the two don't really um don't really shine years from you know down the line so the way to in my opinion approaching realism with the idea of bold will hold uh is is high contrast right so bold will hold well it's contrasting against the skin so there's like a harsh black against like skin tone so that's the biggest contrast you're ever going to get the second would be color contrast so you have contrast in life right you see you have black and wise contrast you have color contrast you know so you have uh orange and purple contrast right you know uh you know orange next to Yellow does not contrast right you know orange next to purple looks different um you know and so you see the immediate difference next to that so if you have like a if you have a purple object you know Thanos or something like that and you have like a orangey byy background what pops out right you know um or even if you have like a a subtle little light shade on his cheek you know of that orange that glow from the background it's going to push those purples forward more and it's going to create that bold will kind of thing so it's like building up things with that intention and with uh with skin tone we we see the same like in painting like there's like subtle like muted green tones in in warm colors right and it allows warm colors to thrive and so even if you just do it's like there like those little um um like color visual things that you so if you if you just add like a little bit of green shade to a colored piece of a a portrait you know uh in the in the in the shadows of the cheek and everything actually increases that's F it's a it's a little it's a little thing that actually shows you the contrast so it actually makes the skin tone it tricks your eyes into thinking the skin tone is more true than what it is you know because your eyes are actually filling in the the space that it actually is so so that's it's it's that stuff you learn from like painting and everything and uh and so I kind of gravitated more towards that tried to and still trying to learn and paint and you know um uh talk with other real artists about realism artists about this sort of stuff about how to contrast these ideas and these paintings these these large format tattoo paintings to make them last I'm playing more with um like Color Fusion stuff now I really like it just because it's um fine line black and gray stuff with bold solid fields of color and and to me it kind of it it does that in a little different way um yeah it's but that's what I mean is like the the older way of tat or not the older way but when I was brought into tattooing and you have to do it this way you have to it has to be this it has to be that it has to be this that's what was known at the time and now we have so many different um tried perspectives that do actually hold up you know and it's it's irrefutable some you know some of this stuff you know some of the things I think are still true like some of the real fine line stuff but that's also they're not going for big and bold either you know so you also have to kind of I think we should be you know respective of like the person getting that that it's not something that I'm getting right you know but the person who is getting that is kind of collecting in a different way than what we were doing we were getting bold they were getting like they're getting dainty little you know doish kind of stuff right jewelry jewelry right you know um so so for the artists that are doing that and the collector that's getting that yeah and it and if you can pull it off correctly if you water down if you're not like blowing out lines and if you're like subduing like the the tones a bit you know so it doesn't it doesn't you know have too harsh of a thing you know I I think you can pull off some some great like fine line stuff like that uh again like it's not my field I don't know too much about it you know but I actually think it's another cool aspect of this industry yeah and it keeps growing you know like the you know blacking out you know this one's covering up a lot of stuff this one's um negative spaces are carved out of there like so it's like yeah so it's like scarification from way back in the day right um the stuff people are doing now is they're like layering a lot of white over stuff and you know for the most part like some of them are you know you know filtering and you know photoshopping like the results but I I do feel like there are some honest tattooers out there that are doing massive color pieces over blacked out arms and stuff dude I just saw uh Bill Canales did a white dragon on Dave Koenig yes oh my God meaning to reach out beautiful like and I was watching the video of him doing it and he's doing it essentially like a pointalism aspect so he's just like I don't know if that was maybe just that specific area he was trying to add texture to but I need to look more yeah yeah the thing about it is like you know there's ink particles that settle in your skin right you know so there's like different sizes of ink particles and you're just adding more ink particles to it over time your body uh you know through trauma and stuff through heat and sun exposure your body breaks apart these particles and it just consumes it right and how tattoos fade you know it's just your body cleaning up cancer and everything else you know that could be in your body and it's a foreign matter so it's cleaning it up it's what it's supposed to be doing um so by you introducing more you're just layering tones on top of it or you know color on top of it you know yeah and why not right back in the day that was shunned upon that won't hold and it's like it's not meant to hold that way it's not intended for this purpose that you're talking about you know it's different form of art you know that's cool so it's I see that in person I want to see it in person I want to see it in person I've seen some color ones out there they're pretty impressive too you know and it looks as what you would think it would be you know it looks like a color tattoo over black tow tattoo you know but I mean otherwise it's a blacked out sleeve you know like I don't know anybody that did this this was in 2004 I think when I did that yeah and I don't know anybody that did that I didn't the first person I've ever seen I don't back then I didn't know much about scarification either you know um so um I Hayworth I met went over to his house and my friend John you know GES that was into it and so like we just kind of cut it out with a scalpel yeah get the [ __ ] out it's some piercing shop it gives me the chills yeah yeah I Def One of guys he wants to do he's like I think I want to do more blackout work and I was like we should do some mockup blackout sleeves for your portfolio to show off just kind of joking around but then I'm like I don't know I mean if it's certain like like yours has like a lot of sign elements and stuff to it like like you could do that I just never in my whole [ __ ] career ever thought about like mocking up a blackout sleeve it just sounded funny as I was talking [ __ ] but then I'm like oh wait but he starts seeing it as these different show the C what he look at she this wall black yeah you know what night looks like it's interesting that's what your arms going look like but I think it's a thing and I'm like yo you could literally even be like hey my hourly blackout rate is [ __ ] 200 or what I don't know that might be thing you know thing just you just show up and you're just manually like I'll just do this for 200 bucks an hour or something I don't know that I think it's a thing but but I don't know man so like that like a lot there's a lot of haters out there that are proud of what they do and you should be you should be proud of the accomplishments that you have for sure and you should be you know you should be driven to pushing your your direction in in the industry in in a in a good way you know and exploring ideas you know you know and you know obviously you're not like tattooing underage or like you know 20-y olds faces and you know you're if that if that's your world too that's fine you know but like you know what I mean like you're not like you're not trying to damage people's lives by putting something stupid on their neck you know as long as you're you're you're you're taking into consideration like you know the client who they're who they are in the world you know they all have different lives you know I I think like exploring different types of art is actually kind of cool that's like doing everything you're not supposed to do it's the whole thing that we got in this industry for like right back around yeah yeah so like you know that's why we got into it it was outside of the norm and then now that we've been into it for a while and now this is a different type of industry for you know um you know for our period of 20 years right like the you know what we had started with is the old corporate tocy of this industry right so they're kind of these these guys are breaking the mold and I I love being a part of it so now sorry jumping onto the AI thing finally getting that um I think that's yet another tool um I'm super excited for it just like anything else it's scary and it's daunting just like anything else um when tanning beds first came out they said they give you cancer and you got to be aware of them you don't want to sit in them you know yeah um there there's all types of scares for new tech that are going to come out and they're scary because we don't know the result and you won't and you will definitely not know how this is going to pan out we don't know how the uh uh when when the internet came out again like I'm that old you know um like when that came around we didn't know how that was going to be utilized we didn't know how social media was going to be utilized we didn't know how um you know candid um you know interactions like this were going to be utilized we talked about that last night before this was like a production where it was curated and you couldn't talk about certain things so if I had a particular view about blackout arms or something like that it's like well we got a blackout arm sponsor you can't [ __ ] talk about that right you know so like that sort of stuff like I love this this Freedom this libertarian world that we're in you know it's I I yeah express yourself and be out there and Reach people you know with similar mindset and so like the the AI thing I think is yet another tool and I think it can definitely be used irresponsibly I think that we're going to get a lot more um Extended Warranty calls you know I think we're going to get a lot more typ stuff I think I get a lot more accurate um product placement uh in in our in our feeds and everything I think I think that's definitely going to be a part of life you think tattooers gonna be using it for the tattooers yeah like how so what I use it for is I definitely use it to help compose ideas and to this Dragon I was working on yesterday she had given me an example of what she kind of liked you know Pinterest something or another and I was able to spit ball half does an ideas P so this one looks like Stone this one's kind of you know this this one's kind of that this is more of a traditional are you using mid Journey I'm using mid journey and Leonardo um couple ones Leonardo is Leonardo is awesome so they both have their strength and weaknesses I'm pretty versed in mid Journey um um you know friend like learning your prompting and everything and how like but there's also like you know um you your your ratios you know you can you can dictate the ratios on there you can meaning yeah like you're uh like 1 by two 5 by you can change those sort of things you can change the weight of the seating on there you can actually uh uh blend two pictures together so you can have a picture of you can upload images and then you can have a picture of puppy or something like that you know and then say I would like a whatever you know that's true I [ __ ] around with it back in the day I did like a black line work uh flash sheet just like a traditional kind of thing and then I uploaded it and it [ __ ] colored it and I was like Blown Away in the middle of the night like looking like what the [ __ ] is going on yeah I think it's a cool ass [ __ ] tool and I think that everybody I personally just think everybody should play with it and just see what they can come up with it even if they're against it or whatever I don't know it's toothless you know I mean there there's there's some nefarious things you can do with it but just like anything else you know if you're lazy you're G to still be lazy with AI if you're not and you want to like you said I'm going to throw out 50 designs here I'm gonna pick [ __ ] little elements of each one then I'm going to work with AI to I find those and then all of a sudden I might get more of a fine tunity and then I'm going to [ __ ] illustrate over the top of that and with it or whatever I don't know tomorrow's piece that I'm working on it's a it's a two-day uh um uh an umbra the breath of life kind of thing and so uh the the idea is a girl you know with Wind and Fire sort of thing and so I did a A baroque mockup of a girl um a new dancing and fire right and so I I use mid Journey a lot to compose a lot of different versions variations from there probably spent maybe a day on that there and then um with Leonardo I maybe even spent another couple days on there at the time I was still um you this is a while back when I was composing it but I was able to you know send this guy four different completely different versions of the idea in high detail and got you ready you know like yeah I'm I mean so great so what I did be able to execute the tattoo just fantastic [ __ ] tatto yeah and even like it's you know composition positioning the the ideas behind it you know what to actually so like in imagery in in in contrasting again you know one of the things is imagery contrast you know I don't know if we talked about this before but like if you have a bunny and a kitty cat next to each other they don't contrast there's fluffy that's you think right you know but if you have a bunny rabbit and a hammer like automatically invokes an emotion that's true yeah it's like why would that invoke an emotion it's just two objects right you know you have a hammer and a screwdriver no emotion right screwdriver and a kitty cat what are you [ __ ] doing psycho right but it's so it's like it's it's us artists also like using imagery to play on each other to help tell the story of what the client wants to convey right you know so that's that's our duty and also to do a a solid job and and you know having the technical ability to you know compose or to to actually you know complete the tattoo um so so AI is yet another tool and again like with his I was I was having fun with it and I felt like I was going to use it for a lot of other things too um you know Phoenix Designs and stuff you know so uh if he didn't like one or two or whatever you know then I could use those for other projects you know but yeah I spent maybe like three days on it you know um on on his you know the two on Mid Journey or the one on Mid journey and the two on Leonardo and then once I had a clump of images almost a thousand images then I started uh in in procreate I started like mashing parts and pieces together that I liked and then I went in you know I I have a Adobe image account too and so they generate photos they there's you can check that off if you wanted to but there's a lot of like Photo photographers you know that you and it does you know pay photographers you know so like you can put photos on there and then as people use them you get you know credit from it you know so like that's just way to promote or way to help you know uh spread it and everything and uh and yeah I've done I've done Pinterest tattoos in the past too but like I I felt like the uh you know subscribing to like a shutter stock or to um you know the Adobe I I like the Adobe platform more I think there's different you know but I do I do like the idea of like uh but also paying like the talent that that took that photograph you know I I love photography I'm into it you know more into like Scenic photography and you know Astro stuff um but like um but actual like like portrait photography is a talent you know and and actually being able to compose your you know your model is a talent um so you know so I do like supporting those people too um I've hired plenty of photographers in the past you know for personal stuff um and I and I do I do like the idea of that so I've done Pinterest I've done you know I've done taken you know free images off the internet but I also like try to support as much as I can too um but you know for that you know there's people that have taken pictures of fire in different aspects you know and so like I use a lot of that or I use a lot of these other elements or pocket watches or what like there's there's so much and there's so much out there and it's a small subscription that you know it's part of your business so it's it's right off at the end of the day you know but um so I took the AI design mashed up I don't know for each one I gave him I gave him three different different options on it and each one I think I had about five different images overlaid on each other or more and I just like this arm's better this composer this whatever you know but you know since it's changing little things I had to kind of change some of the highlights to match with how the rest of the pieces you know lit how are you mapping all that [ __ ] out like and stenciling it you know going from your your completed image like I still I haven't really actually worked with too many like color realistic or any people so it's like so old school way is is like hand stancing right yeah plotting out each like gradient and then the the newer uh way in um is the difference tool in in procreate so you basically duplicate a layer um that layer you turn black and white duplicate that layer and now you have a you know and then so what you do is you go into the little tab where you make it uh multiplyer whatever you know um you change that to I believe it's difference um towards the bottom of it and it finds the difference of those you know so like uh I believe it's called difference yeah yeah but what it'll do is it'll almost white out the entire thing and it'll just have like the darker harder contrasted areas I think it like negatives a thing but like then you just you take the gos and blur and you move it up a little bit until you can kind of see somewhat of a faint you know detailed portion of the thing and it's and it's just the contrasted edges of stuff uh once you do that collect those two layers together uh making it one then you contrast that so you go into your curves you rebalance it so that it's a higher contrast now you have a textured detailed picture of what you're doing then gradient map map yeah then you reduce its opacity overlay it over the first image right and then you line it as you would and so now as you're doing it then you have like all the information for like the shadows in like corners of hairs you know or you know little soft spots on the cheeks you know or like you know edges of like uh wood grain or something like that you have all that texture built into it and you don't need to literally line every single one I still do I I still do like traditional lining on there yeah um and uh then so I'll take that out I I use the Brother printer the pocketjet printer um it's not the best there's there's other things out there that are really nice but the pocket jet for me is a consistency thing so if I'm Printing and doing a tattoo in my in my shop and then I go into a guest spot it's exact same when I do a convention is exact same it's a small little unit you know great yeah all the you know all the the the the graph paper I'm using is all the same you know and so it's it's more of a consistency thing to me so there's there's definitely like the stencil jet printers and all that and they're great I've used them they're awesome um there's a lot of cool stuff that are out that's that's out there and probably getting better um but for me it's a consistency so I map out the tattoo using that little technique um then I traditionally line the parts that I need I'll even actually go through and erase part of what was on that little thing that I made but having the iPad right there so you can in front of you and what is that oh that's a belly button or whatever you know so you can you can kind of easily go through the thing and not have to decide remember like uh star for they're called but like you know just black and white star black and red star you know like and how many of those you saw yeah so like two sides are colored you know like I'm color this one I'm going to color that one I'm going to color this one wait a minute done that before yeah yeah hey why don't we just make this Stone go yeah exactly he let's just shade these yeah um so like it it it helps you not make those mistakes in like a realism piece you know and otherwise it would just take forever you know cuz it repainting my brain just doesn't with starting to finish you you generally work from you know you're not rubbing out the stencil you're a bit more critical about that same process is most I think people applying stencils I shave every single time yeah to me it's exfoliating dead skin cells it's scraping off oil you know Grime whatever is on there so I clean the skin first shave it alcohol um alcohol is gonna feels great yeah wakes them up you know and coffee yeah and uh yeah and and by doing that it it really clears the pallet and it's a little bit of a methodical thing too because then I'm kind of getting a weird way like introduce to the palette that I'm going to work on the you know the thing I'm going to work on you know so familiarizes me with it a little bit more geography of the of the canvas and I definitely like um you know try to shave and clean way out Beyond you know what it is unless it's a forearm thing and they got you know hand I I always leave a patch on the top of their hand oh God yeah I never I let wear that I had somebody call me out one time you just going to leave me like a [ __ ] M and I was like all right bro extra [ __ ] man shaving well you got to match the other side yeah yeah yeah so uh you know and and so by that primer let it kind of dry a little bit uh stick it on there it stays forever what I'm doing multiple days back to back um it's working almost in a printer likee fashion we kind of like ticking up to a point where there's a hard break uh you know soft line Hardline stuff you know like a softline faded off hard line would be the edge of a sword or something so I hard line up you know to that line and then the next day I can actually go right next to that a little bit into what I did the day before but then it's like it's on a very you know fine line some people can do away with stuff and some days you can't super fascinating to me today is that these clients are doing back toback days like we were taught I mean that you can't you T you do the outline you come back in two weeks and you do the shading and color you can't even do like now it's like three you know allowed do pointalism I was told that you were not allowed to do pointalism because it'll just blow out and you can never use a MAG sideways or it'll split the arm open and I was like now thinking back it's like what the hell are you guys the first [ __ ] chance I had to try it I did it and I was like oh no it's not it's [ __ ] that's easier you know yeah that's funny but yeah the clients are getting so you're getting a lot of like you'll get two days at least like back to back or most yeah I I rarely have a single day appointment most of my pieces are either two or three days um if I can do them back to back I I I do I I'm okay with it but I definitely definitely prefer uh staggering those two days so my second approach instead of like the printer thing um because that one it's like a lot of like tedious filling into a point of stop you know for the day the uh the way I prefer is is layering and so the approach that I have with that is it's I'm kind of it's my outline I'm roughing in all the dark areas and light areas and so I'm kind of lining shaping things all the things that are going to be EXT extra Rich you know so like triple black areas here yeah um you know white highlights here that kind of stuff you know uh and I do like a little bit of midtone texturing here and there and then the following appointment a couple weeks two three weeks later is where I Almost Do the entire tattoo over again and so I have the tattoo on it but now I can really really layer things in I don't have to worry about abusing the skin too much you know I don't have to worry about healing issues and what it's doing is it's almost like it's almost like doing your touchup session prior so you're getting you're getting like the the rich blacks the hard contrast that you get from from having those real deep blacks and you're getting to punch in those highlights twice you know and so it just it really sets it home and what's your go-to black most often times it's hard to I'm sorry what's your go-to black right now justup yeah that's that's like it seems I don't know like um feels right feels right revolution's got like a dozen blacks I don't know why um like I've tried a couple but I you know I it's hard because then you need to see something like months later you know you need something that has been out in the sun to see what it looks like triple black is just basically right like three different dense blacks um with a lot of carbon into it um so like uh so yeah it it's it seems consistent enough I used to use all Fusion kind of branching out I I still like a lot of fusion colors um like a lot of world famous so um kind of Branch out a little bit Yeah but yeah so my Approach no yeah the uh the hard contrast thing the the ability to go back and kind of like relayer in things you know I think I think for me like it it helps me uh uh set at home uh Aftercare wise I've tried the Second Skin stuff I've uh uh I really got on to the the the puppy pead thing you know that yeah there the so Russians uh that I had met back in the day they've been doing it forever you know and when I was first like use pead you know and I was like the [ __ ] you talking about like the go g like that yeah I told Val about it and she's like my wife and she's uh she's like oh those are truck pads we have them in the hospital what she like yeah all moisture for all moisture it's a moisture lock thing yeah I was like oh that makes sense it's a big bandaid without the sticky thing I personally like those better I like them better the no adhesive no adhesive I I use the um context wrap whatever the stretchy wrap stuff I use that to tie it on instead of tape so itle a little bit better and it doesn't like constrict so much bulky and kind of messy but if you you can clean it up with the the ceny wrap and stuff but it absorbs so much next if my favorite is I'll do that when I'm like heavily saturating something I know I'm abusing the skin I know I'm pushing it a little bit you know and in in the next day if my my ideal situation is if I can do that and then have them come in the following morning I'll even come in on a day off you know just just for that sake and then I'll do the uh the Second Skin wrap on there oh okay after the fluids like that initial 24-hour fluid is gone yeah and and so it's it's purged everything and then I can I can really clean everything again um I just do the uh the intense it's like a it's that that green soap I think it's like green soap concentrate without the alcohol or anything in there and so then you can concentrate as or dilute as much as you want I I use that I clean the hell out of it again and then I um yeah apply that second skin on there so many different brands out there I've used tadm I've used uh yeah you ever seen any weird reactions come back from the Sun yeah or like my wife she got the small T we got small tattoos um I don't even know maybe like six months ago or whatever and so they were healed obviously but we were in um from the Sun yeah so we were in California this she got some sun 2in Square white area around the tattoo as her tan came in we're talking six months later I don't no I haven't seen that I've seen that on one of my clients one time and then I stopped using it because I was like I don't even know what the [ __ ] this is I'm not doing this anymore so but I thought you were talking about the Second Skin thing I've seen reactions from that too yeah well yeah I'm talking about right like the second skin like the small you know your clear bandage you're putting over the top the breathable okay so you took the bandage off yeah the tattoo was healed so that you you know she kept it on for like two days takes it off washes off soap and water Pat it dry lubricate blah blah blah six months later we're at [ __ ] SeaWorld and I see the white square come up on her skin I have not seen this I've seen it on mine and the lady was tripping she was like I went on vacation this is like months after I tattooed her and she has this [ __ ] giant white square around her and she's tan I'm like I see anybody burned from it no I I got a friend whose neck has burned pretty bad from me he allergic to the adhesives and then there I won't name the brand yeah but um weird yeah it's a very popular one and the um the company had switched his manufacturing to to one that to a place that wasn't very heart controlled you know and uh he has like a rose on his neck with a big Square burn around it still years later years later he's a tattooer you I like the pad idea I just think the pead idea is the way to go you know and so that's just it it's like each Aftercare has it like pluses and minus you know like I I I still think a andd is fine you know I still think laa for is fine you know I think there's some really great um uh uh shave better stuff out there that's great you know that's awesome you know's gonna have like nobody's nobody's gonna you know right you know like the the the mango or whatever in um this other product you know they they have uh you know some people have reactions to the scent you know so like not every product is going to work with everybody so you know you have to kind of in my opinion you have to kind of weigh out like how well it's going to survive the healing process and so if the person is a fireman policeman something like that where they're going to in the fire they're going to have carcinogens around them if they're a policeman you know they're going to have like their life their works you know uh and their tattoo exposed to that so what is the cost the balance right you know so do you risk that you know yeah like so if they're going to be going to work next week you know yeah I'll I'll go in and I'll create like I'll add that barrier so that kind of helps you in your world right you know or if they're they have eight dogs at home you know whatever it may be right so I don't know there there's like a there's a little bit of a um B there's no one way to to to skin it right I love how you you know I you're obviously talented and what I love how much thought you put into not only your tattoos but how it affects the longevity the customers experience and like that's all something that I think a lot of us all could always step up more you know take into consideration it's like that's what we want you know that's you know like we want to be treated as people you know we want our ideas to give experience is you know it's like it's like w you know want to it's like it's like w you know I'm you know I'm really thinking about getting a pocket water and pocket watch and Rose you know you know and I'm thinking about adding some Celtic n workk to it and it's like it's like that you know it's like there you could still make that cool like there there's no shame to it you know there's there's like a there's like an antiy campaign right now you know there's like an anti-tribal campaign there's like it's like it's like things took off because they they were done well and they looked good you know and so like even the lower back [ __ ] stamp like at the time like they look good you know same thing with the underbook good you know and so like yeah like there's but the thing is is like there's there's a there's a hating of certain things and it's like why don't you just tweak it why don't you just you know put your own flare on the thing you know if you hate it so much you know but if somebody wants it somebody desires it why not somebody's still going to come into your shop tomorrow and want a full Celtic not work sleeve you know yeah and you're sitting there doing nothing because you're [ __ ] a hater so what are you gonna do that's that's something you should try to do your best and put your time and energy into shop owners are doing their damnedest to get people in the doors most I know there's some bad shop owners out there but most shop owners are trying to do their damnest to get people in the doors and it's so disrespectful to sit there on your hands and say like oh that's you know that's beneath me yeah like what this you know you're not doing it you're not busy you know and this guy you know this guy that's his thing he wants to do it you know you know and and certain things obviously are bad you know or or or you know like obviously offensive tattoos or like you know your girlfriend's name on your neck when you're 18 right you know like you know little things like that or tattooing her face on your face you know like have you seen that yeah okay don't do that you know but I mean like if somebody wants like you know whatever you know be a tribal sleeve or whatever you know like oh I just saw dust da it's gonna be you know this is the new thing let him you know do it and do a bang up job and why not right you know like you know you're not a slave to but you have to also respect like the the you know what that person you know likes you know I think like as an artist like in today's in any world like it's it's up to us to kind of like put a different SP been on there and kind of make it cool make it make it edgy and make it bring it back some way you know um and you see people do it and it's it's always impressive when they do and so I'm I'm I'm humbled when I see that when I see that sort of thing it's like oh man like to redo a Tazz today you know to we do a Tas maning today or like I I did like a you know a wizard with a globe and stuff you you know that was a cool throwback kind of thing you know it's like it's fun you know like you know how can you take like these old things and kind of make them fun again you know in a in a different way you know your own light so I don't know I I the the thing that has even though I I had that moment where I was thinking about the thing that kept me back in tattooing would drew me in the first place I I left came back you know thought about you know the thing that keeps drawing me back to it is there is no ceiling to this um there it's constantly evolving you will never perfect this there's always going to a new Twist on things and after 30 years of thinking that we were hitting the ceiling it's oh it's just about to it's going you know and it's it's getting wild it's getting wild it's yeah and and now there's a new emerging you know Tech out there and there's going to be another one I I would say for a younger artists out there be technically proficient be very work on that right you know um work on your art as well you know of course right you know work on your composition work on your your your you know work on how it's viewed overall you know work on the story of the tattoo work on you know Body Lines and everything you know um you know walk the the the viewer through the tattoo one thing leads to another to another that Dave does great job with that but yeah also be a very technical tattoo I think for me it's best to be accomplished in multiple different styles so I I really lean into color but I I really do like fine line black and gray stuff too yeah so it's fun and there are amazing artists out there and there's it's it just seems impossible to get anywhere near what they do you know with some of it but it's it's also that pursuit of uh of perfection I think that drives us you know and so that that striving to be better as a person you know fulfills us I think that's important um you know and being inspired by by others I think is is also important you know it keeps it keeps us all yeah going around you know and I I don't know I love that part about this industry I don't think that's going away anytime soon I hope I don't I don't foresee our industry you know it's changing constantly but I don't think it's ever going to go it can't really go away it's such a a cool subculture that had been around through the dawn of time that I don't know like it's it's a way for us to tell our stories to other tribes you know it's a way for us to convey uh who we are and uh and and and at the time that you know we started you and I started it was a whole different period from where it is now and you can't expect 20 years from now to be any you know to be the exact same as what it is today right you know it's going to be turn on his head a dozen more times right keep keep an open mind these are the cards that were being played so play them you know play them as best as you can you know and dictate the world on your terms if you want to be a coil artist if you want to uh just do stick and pooke tattoos if you want to uh you know do the traditional Tori you know if you want to do that like awesome do it have fun with it you know if you want to you know compose a piece like you know with um you know pastels and stuff beforehand awesome do that you know like that's your Edge that gets you noticed right that gets you SE that's that's why people come to you they appreciate that you know and if you're the guy you know who's you know utilizing Ai and iPads you know to get you know to get your point across to your clients you know if that helps you out do it you know be ashamed of it I think there's a big yeah there's a there's there's a lot of like traditionalists that um that we learned it this way there should be no other better way you know because that means I have to learn something new right you know so that's not healthy um the one thing that I have seen change in the industry is the The Gatekeepers are they're becoming smaller and smaller right you know and and and I I love the uh the rising tide uh you know the rising tide raises All Ships sort of thing I love that you know and it's so true the better we all become as artists the the better the clientele the better we're getting tattooed obviously you know like the better work comes out there the more people are inspired to get more tattoos right you know so like if somebody goes and has a horrible experience you know the guy was on pills the guy was you know you know dick this up you know it's not even what I want it you know person that has that experience they're not really inclined to get a lot more work done the guy goes and gets an amazing piece you know and say he does go to a convention and they give him a little you know plastic you know trophy thing to it you know and it's like you know it's like it's it's it's a good feeling you know and it's a good feeling to know that's it's like yeah this guy bust his ass on this he work you know and this guy's really you know he's got a he's got a thing that he's doing that nobody else does and I don't know like that elevates the industry because now somebody else is looking at his arm they're looking at his piece and they're saying wow that's impressive so why don't we just do that with all of us there's there's plenty you know and the thing is it actually brings more people into the industry so the TV thing people hated on that but I also saw that as a way to reach out to people they people who never even get tattoos but at least it familiarizes us to them right you know it it huge reason why we're all super busy these days like like we talked about last night it's been on TV tattoo TV has been on for 20 years now yeah it's really wild dude and before like that kid who was telling me he was like you know it's just a bunch of you know weird characters doing you know odd stuff and I was like oh I get that now you know but it actually humanizes us yeah it makes us you know it brings us into the living room and it's like no we're not like the scary you know Outlaw Biker Club guy now all your doctors are getting tattooed and I'm like the list of attorneys that I tattoo you know they're all people with money and they're willing to pay for a better experience and better artists and it's [ __ ] fantastic like why would I not want that so it's it's the best I'm I'm super happy with that well [ __ ] man we should wrap it up we are uh I'm just super thankful for you to take the time I know you got some work to do today and got finish up your guest spot I know we can talk for hours and hours yeah we talked for like two hours on the phone last night almost I was but uh yeah I just greatly appreciate you taking the time to be here and yeah it's fun I appreciate your friendship I I appreciate like everything that you do on your side of the world to for your people and your family and everything you told me last night you know like you know retiring your folks that's so cool that's I it's crazy yeah but yeah no I no appreciate giving him a space and be able to rap for yeah an hour you know so how do we find you like tell us your Instagram your website whatever you got going on your bestag probably the easiest it's uh Nolan wheeler n o e l i n Wheeler w l e r the website and everything is Savage son um but Instagram is I think San Marcos yeah the tattoo shop in San it's sattoo shop in Austin live in s Marcos oh okay cool yeah I couldn't remember if you were in or out of town yeah the the shops in Austin it's private Studio it's a uh it's a little Hideway from me it's it's you know it's a little bit more you know little rustic uh little rustic modern kind of thing but um it's quiet and it's um I don't know work 12 hours uh work on uh you know mostly large projects you know but I try to make it as as chill as possible so uh and I'm also going to be traveling to Vegas again I'm going to make this in my annual rotation a few times a year yeah I'm going to be in yel Washington in a couple weeks uh doing a guest spot up there also did like a charity raffle thing for 22 To None uh it's a it's an organization that um that helps families uh uh with v suicide you know deal with that so yeah um so I'm trying to become more of a part of the the community up there and uh Norwest paic Northwest Montana I'm going to try to get to my buddy james' shop in Montana I think maybe July I don't know I'm going to I'm going to hit him up about that you know maybe I can make a trip out there before the the new one comes yeah but um but yeah this is a going to be my new little rotation now that life is settling down a little bit it's still crazy and I anyway but like uh it's it's a fun trip man let's get you back in and um I want to I want to do the round table type things maybe next time you're out here like get like three or four tattooers just to talk about certain subjects I think it would be real fun so yeah let do that and uh this this will probably this will be a little ways out as far as coming out but um let me know yeah we'll be there but uh thank you guys so much for tuning in thank you Nolan greatly appreciate it and uh get out there and support your local tattooers man all right have a good one bye guys take guys [Music]