Maverick ZINE — Tattoo Culture, Art & Artist Stories

in Houston especially, it was whatever was coming through the door. It was a lot of black and gray [ __ ] It was a lot of realism. It was a lot of [ __ ] script and okay, Pinterest. That was the majority of my money was coming from that. And then there was a switch where I was like, I'm just going to focus on making weird flash. And if you get that, then we're [ __ ] tight, dude. Like, it's going down. We're doing some cool [ __ ] And then it started to like pick up that way where I I think people started to appreciate me doing dumb flash ended up becoming like I'm just dropping flash and people are getting the flash.

[Music] What's happening? Thank you for coming to support your local tattooer tonight. My man Crocodile Jackson's in the house. We had a few drinks tonight. It was been a while. We've been We've been hanging out all day. I got tattooed. Um super excited about this.

We went out to dinner. We had some drinks. We're Dude, we raided the Maverick Warehouse in the middle of the night. We're here to do this podcast um show, whatever you want to call it. Thanks so much for tuning in. Let's [ __ ] get down to the nitty-gritty and like hang out with our homie Crocodile Jackson. So, how y'all love [ __ ] Cheers, dude. Cheers, y'all.

" Very fun time. Yeah, this is this is fun. This is like We've been trying to loosen up over here and just have a good time and uh you know, get down to like I don't know, just like where we came from and what we're doing and why we're even here. The brass tags, dude. The brash tags. The brass. Yeah, we [ __ ] broed down tonight. We didn't realize that neither.

Like both of us are from Houston. We have so much in common. Yeah. I'm pretty positive our dads are the same dad. Pretty positive. We don't want 23 and me. We're going to find out that we are long lost siblings or cousins or some [ __ ] Yeah, it was funny. It was like he's doing uh so Crocodile Jackson, Mr.

Well, Hunt. Do we go we go by Hunter? Yeah. Yeah, you can go by Hunter. I don't ever tell anyone the name. Okay. But that's I do I should because people come in and they're like I'm here for crocodile crocodile and I'm like that's feel that's weird. I love it though.

Yeah. No, I I Yeah, Hunter is fine. I I should I should embrace that more. Genuine. I'm so excited. Like dude, tonight was was fun as [ __ ] Like I literally just reached out to you just cuz I just been a fan of your artwork. We've been we've been carrying actually your products for a while, like your fun uh your um your card collection, your flash friends collection, and they're super amazing, dude. The amount of people that you have involved in that project, I [ __ ] know how hard it is to wrangle cats.

Thank you, dude. Aka tattooer [ __ ] dude. Dude, whoa. You're the first person to ever say wrangling cats because it is it does feel like that. Like I We're chaos and we know each other. Like we know how like our brains work. Like you you were literally wrangling cats. Like when you're putting together fantastic, creative, unique characters all to one project, the amount of attention it takes and drive it takes to like get us all to like do one thing.

It ain't no joke, dude. I'm I'm I think I'm really fortunate though because everyone that has participated has been extremely chill and on time for the most part. Like there is there is, you know, outliers that I have to like hunt down and people that I really want in the thing to be like, I I got to like hit you up and whatever, but but for the most part, people are like super game, which I was not expecting. Uh and that's [ __ ] cool. Let's get down to that a little bit more. Like I I I just have a whole lot of respect for this and I know this project is a big deal for you too and uh like so Okay. So, how before we get into like your history of tattooing and everything like how the [ __ ] did this h this particular project happens? Yeah.

Yeah. Dude, it it it purely came out of like I'm a big magic nerd. Uh, and it it's I just play Magic all the time with my friends and I'm a big collector of cards and [ __ ] Like that's cool. I'm a chachki guy. I like collecting [ __ ] And one day I was justing chilling thinking about it. " Yeah. I mean, at least not like, you know, the general population. Tattoo nerds collect Flash.

Yeah. " And it was a pipe dream, dude. For the longest time, believe it or not, I I got all the art for the first set and did nothing with it for an entire year. No [ __ ] Because I was like, "This is stupid. " Oh, I I was for real artist insecurity. Like I was so hard on myself. I was like, this is so dumb. What the [ __ ] was I thinking?

Yeah. And then it was just one day I was like, I'm just going to [ __ ] make it. I [ __ ] threw down, got it made, and everyone was super stoked on it, and I I'm like, well, I'm going to keep going. Yeah. And uh and we're here. We're I'm like two and a half sets in. How many artists to like I not looking for like direct numbers but like you have like a couple hundred artists, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I have about 300 now. Holy [ __ ] dude. I have the first set was 60, the second set was uh 82 and then the the half set that I did in the Netherlands was like Oh, I didn't I didn't even know about that. Very secret very secret set. Okay. I like it. I did it for the True Blue convention. Uh for everyone that was participating in that convention, we did it exclusively for the True Blue guys.

Uh who Bob is like super cool. " So I got everyone in that convention to do it and then we just released that in the Netherlands and it was really really cool. Um so including that around 200 300 people. Uh, yeah. But official sets, that's a fuckload of emails between, dude. Dude, I know exactly how that is. I'm not good at emails. There was so many like And there's also like I I always, you know, I'm always shooting for people outside of uh America.

Like I try to every for the past two sets I've tried to get people from every I try to get as many states as possible to just showcase like maybe different stylistic hubs across America. Yeah. And it's the same for the for the world. Like I love finding the like Korean folks who are doing [ __ ] and the sp the Spanish people who are doing [ __ ] and so on and so forth cuz there's I was always so interested in the little bubbles of style. They're happening all over the place like little niche like Exactly. And it's just it's so cool. And that was originally the main interest of Flash Friends where I was like I'm gonna I just wanted to showcase style bubbles. Okay.

People that are style pushers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like Yeah. " Whoa. Ended up becoming Flash friends. Yeah.

No [ __ ] Yeah. So, like the whole con were we just partying one night or like where did the like the Flash Friends concept come from? Like I'm not I'm not joking. I was taking a [ __ ] I forgot my phone. Okay. And it's one of those weird moments where you're like, I'm you're left with your thoughts. " Yeah. So, if so, for anybody that's listening that doesn't like know what we're even talking about, Flash Friends is like a like basically like baseball cards of tattooers and their artist style.

Not so much about them, but more about their illustration styles and like nerding out on their uniqueness in our our community. Just showcasing Flash. Yeah. Just Flash. just cool flash from people all over the world. Some of it you might not think is like the coolest flash in the world, but it is something I think is important me personally where I'm like, "Oh, this person inspired me to some extent and it's like yeah, that's all I really want the just showing the full range of what Flash looks like. " Yeah. Well, yeah.

We we spend a lot of time and energy on flash events and stuff from Photoshop and I think it's just super fun and old. Well, I don't know if it's considered old school now or like I hate to throw that out there, but I'm curious about that. Yeah. I'm like an exclusively flash tattooer. Like I hardly ever do custom pieces. Okay. And it's like I don't know. That's just the way I've always operated.

And I'm like this is cool. So you'll draw pre and then display and then your clients will be able to like choose from. Yeah. I'm like I'm open for these designs. Let's do it. And then I do those and then it's it's fun. So like tonight like when I I I rolled into the shop and I was like uh so a little backstory on he he was passing through town and I just randomly was like you know what I [ __ ] love this dude. Like I don't know you but you know like uh I wanted to reach out and just touch base and see if you were open to do a little random tattoo and you drew it on and it was super fun.

Yeah. Uh that's how I love to tattoo. So it was very I don't do it very often. cuz you were like as soon as I said draw it on it really was like hell yeah let's do this [ __ ] like cuz I haven't done it and I mean I I I've done it I do it every once in a while but whenever I do get the opportunity of and I knew you were going to be like game for whatever we ended up doing and and how do you think we knew that like how do you think how do we read our customer like how do we read our clients just from the limited interactions that we've we've had online it's not like we've had a whole lot but like I think you knew that Even with clients where you're like, they're cool. Yeah. They'll let me do what I want. It's a vibe. Whatever you want to call it, like you just feel it out like pretty quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. And and and getting to do that makes me feel cuz doing Flash is not like doing exclusively Flash is taxing because you're you're kind you're repeating a lot. Yeah. You're doing like a lot of the same thing over and over again. And it does get very boring. I always compare that to musicians. I'm like, I don't know anything about making music.

Yeah. I'm just like wondering like how many times they can play those hits cuz like you us as illustrators like how many how many like we do a few drawings maybe a couple times but not like nightly. You know what I mean? Could you imagine doing the same [ __ ] drawing over and over and over? The worst is I think it would be so taxing on us. 100%. The worst is doing like a guest spot and then like multiple people in that same city want the same design. Oh, no [ __ ] Like do you feel guilty about it or is it more like you know what's weird is I I don't know if you remember but I do remember like a part of coming up was like there was like it was almost like frowned upon on like repeating flash.

Yeah. Do you remember this era of tattooing? I was in a weird moment where or I don't know like in time in tattooing where the flash was on the walls but everything in inside of us and at the time was like we don't want to do the flash. We want to do our own [ __ ] So I constantly was pushing myself to prove myself to the client that I can draw heard whatever Cory Miller did on the wall or whatever you know Cherry Creek type [ __ ] you want. I I can draw my own version of this for you right now. Interesting. And I would do it right [ __ ] then. and stress myself out which would force me to like be a better illustrator you know so and it would make the client feel super special so everyone was winning yeah that was there was a switch whenever I was doing walk-ins it was never it was never flashbased it was always just like whatever do whatever yeah your version right well no no dude no one wanted my [ __ ] in the beginning but it was excited to talk about that in Houston especially, it was whatever was coming through the door.

It was a lot of black and gray [ __ ] It was a lot of realism. It was a lot of [ __ ] script and okay, Pinterest. So, that was just all that was the majority of my money was coming from that. And then there was a switch where I was like, I'm just going to focus on making weird flash and if you get that, then we're [ __ ] tight, dude. Like, it's going down. And then it started picked [Music] up becoming like I'm just dropping flash and people are getting the flash. Dude, so the energy that you're putting out there though as far as like convincing the client to do your own thing, I think that's so incredibly powerful. You're not being [ __ ] lazy.

you're being actually like the hard worker dude that's like, "No, like I can draw this like this way, you know, and even if it's [ __ ] weird and it's something that they've never seen before, ever, like I" And they feel that [ __ ] dude. And I think so, too. Yeah. And that's what drives the attention to be, you know, like, "Let's follow this dude. " And I think that's how I always looked at it, dude. Yeah. For me, it's been the whole package of like selling yourself. Yeah.

more than anything else. Like like you're you're you're selling your art, but you're also selling your like uh your vibe, what you do on a daily basis and connecting with people and all this [ __ ] And that was like a Are we allowed to curse? Yeah. Well, I don't know how to not curse. Oh, okay, cool. I just I just said it and I was like, that's [ __ ] up. Oops. Um, but it really is like selling yourself.

Like I I I always say I don't think I'm like the greatest artist. I I don't think I'm a good artist. I don't think we ever need to be. Right. I don't want that ego, but I do think I'm like a The part I am confident in is like being a [ __ ] weirdo and like and a connector to your I at least can like be a friendly guy. Yes. I can be a friend and that's I think I think that's my biggest strength in anything and that's uh yeah I think that's that's mainly how I sell I think we bonded a lot about that tonight just about like how we just put ourselves out there and that's all you can [ __ ] do is just like share what you're doing and even if it's weird and your peers may not be into it or your hater ass [ __ ] neighbor might not be into it but like all we can do is just [ __ ] put it out there and if someone's receptive to it it's so incredibly heart fulfilling, you know, and it's so fun to get like I don't know.

It's kind of like dating. You ask out a million people and if one is not a million but like a hundred, you know? A million. Dude, I [ __ ] a lot. I gets down, bro. You know what I mean? You put yourself out there and you and you just you try to just keep a clear head and just try to [ __ ] vote for that one person. It is, but it's also thickened our skin, dude.

And like we talked a lot about tonight like just about how we've thickened our skin through tattooing and how that's helped us out in our lives in general and stuff too. It was fun as [ __ ] Yeah. I don't I don't think that's like it's not an easy road to pave for yourself. I guess I think it's it's I can't tell you how many times getting to now that I've had like tattooers who I thought were cool Yeah. " You [ __ ] me up, dude. Like, this is a traumatic experience for me. But, but it was like, but I was confident in it. I was like, I can whatever, dude.

It's never about like being confident in the moment. It's just like, I'm doing this and I like this and it's making me feel a certain type of way. And if someone connected with it to get it etched onto their body, then that's all that really [ __ ] matters. Yeah. At the end of the day, like, you know, like I think that's the coolest part about it because it it always to me feels like an experimentation more than just whatever there. And it's this like fine line of like pushing like even with Flash Friends, it's not so like I don't want to disregard the old world of tattooing ever. Yeah. I'm such a fan of how we've gotten to this point.

Yeah. And if you try to push style without understanding how we got here, I think you get to a really weird place that no one respects because you're being too ignorant. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just I'm an idiot. Don't listen whatever however I say it. " Yes.

You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Yeah. Our energy as artists is always to do things our own [ __ ] way. But the idea that we can pay respects to how we were learned and learned, how we were taught, that's the most southern [ __ ] I've heard. How we was learn. But yeah, like how we were taught to do something uh like basically take on the great responsibility of doing a tattoo that's going to be on our clients forever. So if we can take like I only know to like Japanese and American traditional style, if I can take those basic formulas and apply them in our funky weird illustration format, but still pay respects to that, then hopefully that [ __ ] tattoo will still look good 10 years from now.

Totally. You know, I [ __ ] up some bad tattoos, I'm sure. Like, yeah, I think we all have. But I [ __ ] up a tattoo today. It's on my [ __ ] knee, bro. Yeah, it was your tattoo. Yeah. No, I don't know.

It's like I think that's a I know what you're saying. It's It's at the end of the day, you need to have that in mind, too, of it being like, "This is your tattoo. " I think that should always be at the focus. Like you're the shepherd. Yeah. But like my my old boss told me he's like, "Dude, they want a [ __ ] sandwich, you give them a [ __ ] sandwich. " Yeah. But they're going to want a [ __ ] sandwich at the end of the day.

It's such a gray area. I mean, it is it is what it is. Yeah. And then even whenever you're working with clients that like want your stuff, they're going to tend to take it out of the realm that you're comfortable in or or the realm that you think is going to look good. Yeah. Sometimes some clients are just like hellbent on getting what they want and they think that you can do it. Yeah. Meanwhile, you're I'm not that great of an illustrator, you know?

Like, okay, so like Yeah. [ __ ] Let's jump all around. We're going to jump all around tonight. Yeah, we've been partying all night long. Uh, so your like your style is you I'm I'm I'm such a nerd and I'm in love with like unique illustrators that have um been patient and worked their way through tattooing and built up their own following and stuff. It like how often are you dealing with people that are like, "I love your style. " [ __ ] more often than you think. Yeah.

Isn't it? I I would think it's still a thing for every human that's tattooing. So that's what I'm telling you. I think people like me more than my art a lot of the time, which is Dude, cool. Yeah. But I am also like, why did you come to me for this? That is very great. I'm not going to turn that.

Yeah. So, how often do you ever try to do you ever try to switch up your [ __ ] Like I mean your dude I can the the the the thing I'm grateful for is working in street shops for the majority of my career and being able to do stuff like I I'm pretty confident I could knock out some cool like black and gray realism. Really? No [ __ ] Okay. I'm fairly It's not I've dabbled and like got some [ __ ] done where the client's happy and I'm happy. But I could make I could get it done. Yeah, I could get it done. Is it gonna be worldrenown or would I charge you a good rate for that?

No. I would probably charge you well less. I'd probably feel bad. But no, I could get it done. I I genu like no all jokes aside, I think I could do an okay job at it. Yeah. If I was at a street shop. Okay.

And I think that's like important to know to be like as wellrounded as possible, but also specialize in your [ __ ] Yeah. " Yeah. And I'd be like, "I've never done no matter what time in I've never done lettering on a belly. Uh, I'm very terrified right now. your diarrhea in your stomach is building up. You're sweating and then all of a sudden you're just like, "Yes, ma'am. " Let's do this. In the very I was still an apprentice.

I remember this girl wanted like a bird on her like upper right shoulder. And uh I got like 15 minutes into the tattoo and I had a full-on panic attack and [ __ ] left. I'm not joking. like bounced like out of the shop. I told the other guy that was there, I was like, "Jason, you got to finish this tattoo. Get the [ __ ] out. " Where did you go? I don't know how I didn't get fired.

I know. I'm not going to lie. " Like, I don't know, dude. I patient way over my head. I was I I did like three lines on it. Yeah. and they were the most [ __ ] up wobbly lines I ever and then I was like I can't dude that specifically reminds me of the first time I did a dude's throat. He wanted like some graffiti [ __ ] and I like grew up doing graffiti but you know whatever.

I don't know. I'm also a year into tattooing and I'm now all of a sudden going to do like throat your throat all the way across your [ __ ] dude. I still I I remember every [ __ ] moment of that tattoo. I remember sweat like I I'm pretty sure my sweat dripped down onto his face while I was tattooing him. It was so roguish. But uh like I got through it and and it I was forced to because my boss at the time was that old school boss where he was like, "Bro, like this dude's here. " Yeah. To blast his whole entire throat, like seven letters across his throat.

So I drew it [ __ ] on, dude. like a year and a half into tattooing and like terrified [ __ ] more like so scared mainly because I was like in a [ __ ] rough ass shop and like my boss was like your little [ __ ] ass is going to do this tattoo and then you're going to go home and be happy because you made $150 or whatever the [ __ ] Yeah, right. You made you made 40% of that money. But dude, that [ __ ] is terrifying. But it built that character, dude. pushes you through the hardest scariest [ __ ] dude. Work through that. I I I think tattooing is like 90% confidence.

A thou dude. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like like I think it is. It really is like that moment after that I was like I'm never doing that again. I'm going to [ __ ] my So what happened? Like how the [ __ ] did that end up? Like did you come back in the next day?

Shout out Jason. Shout out Tattoo Jason [ __ ] Houston. Uh we worked at this shop called Fat Cats. was owned by this guy named Rusty who rest in peace was an old biker guy. All right. And uh yeah, he uh Jason saved my ass cuz he he jumped in and finished the tattoo. And I was Do you The lady was like Yeah. Did he say what the client was going on?

She was like horrified, but he crushed it. He showed me the tattoo afterwards. I was like took the cash. Thank God. 100% pay to 15 minutes worth of cash. Hey, bro. I put in 20 on this. I think I need about 40 bucks from that.

Uh but no, he he jumped in and saved my ass and and that was [ __ ] really cool cuz I would have panicked if I I was there alone. I was in way over my head. They should not have let me do that. Um and I my mentor wasn't even there. Like of course no mentors were there when we back in the day. But I was like I was like dude no don't let me we're all suffering from absent daddy, you know? Yeah. like that.

My dude was never there either and I'm dealing with it menace, dude. Jesus. But he uh it it taught me a good I think the thing that it did teach me was boundaries on on my scope of ability. Like I wasn't able I know what I wasn't able to do from then on. I was like I'm not able to do ribs. I don't think I'm there yet. Yeah. And then whenever I was more confident, I would take on stuff like, you know, like incredibly valuable.

Exactly. Honestly, instead of fighting, I I I'm glad I I honestly am glad I had the that that panic attack for the client's sake because if I had followed through with it, I would have [ __ ] the whole tattoo up. " And I, you know, cornered myself. Pretty wild. Yeah, that's pretty wild. That's [ __ ] insane. " Um, John's going to finish this up. He just comes out of the bag with his [ __ ] meat apron on and he's just That would honestly be kind of sick.

I heard about this [ __ ] some tag team [ __ ] dude. I heard I'll do the outline, you do the coloring. I thought about that way back in the day. Like a system. Let's do this. Yeah. Yeah. I I heard about this tattooer.

I'm not going to name his name, but I heard about this tattooer whenever I moved to LA who uh I had tattooed a client and she was like, I went to go get a tattoo from him and whenever I show up to his studio, uh it was just a guy there. " And he goes in the back room and he comes out and there's a guy with a mask on and like a whole get up. It was just that dude that was right there and he he had a whole facade that he put on and that's how he tattoo people. He would tattoo them a luchador mask and [ __ ] Is that too LA for me? Is that too LA for you? " And then I just go and put a mask on. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Yeah.

And I I've always been like, that's cool. I like a good I like a good a stick. It's [ __ ] I like a good stick. That's dumb, though. Oh, man. Dude. So, okay. So, one thing we like to do here is just get down to kind of I love listening and hearing about where the [ __ ] we came from and like how you got into this [ __ ] Like so like how do you have any early memories of like being exposed to tattooing or tattoos in general that were funky and weird or fun?

Tattoo magazines. Yeah. Just like walking into convenience stores and seeing tattoo magazines. That was like next to the porno too, which is funny. It was only porno and tattoo. The reason why I was there was nudie mags. And then it was the tattoo. I was like, "Well, I can't get the nudie mags.

" Yeah, but it was it was also like my grandparents who were in the biker culture and and all that [ __ ] and then uh and they had tattoos and then they would their friends would show me their tattoos and I was just always kind of like oh that's [ __ ] cool. I always thought they were really tough looking and I was Do you remember seeing like your first badass tattoo that you were just like that [ __ ] is like my [ __ ] peep? Oh, my grandpa. Yeah, dude. He had this [ __ ] I didn't know what it was for the longest time, but it was like that old school style of like having like one forearm tattoo, one upper arm tattoo, and that was like the only tattoos you ever got, right? But he had this like [ __ ] blob of a like blue cuz he got it in the military and [ __ ] And uh it just was like it looked like a blob.

But I always just thought he was tough like because he to me was this like tough Texas dude blah blah blah. Yeah. And uh I didn't ask him what it was until I was like in my 20s really. And I was like what is that? He was like oh it's a pirate head and and and after he told me I was like oh I could see my whole life. It was like a shack ink blot type thing. And at the same time, they were also very discouraging of me getting into tattooing. Really, they really did not want me to do it.

I was like, and I was like, do you started expressing it at a young age that you wanted to get into it or no? Uh, no. No. Or just I I had I think I had carried that with me to where I was like, I'm not going to do tattooing. Like I like whatever. That's for that's for like the wild people. Yeah. That was the mentality I had like as a, you know, younger teenager.

And then is that some Texas [ __ ] or what? Cuz I don't know, dude. Dude, my dad's mom didn't talk to him for years when she found out we were opening a tattoo shop. Oh, dude. See, I'm I'm I'm talking to be like disowned by your mother because you want to get into tattooing. I got into my first I got my first tattoo whenever I was 15. No [ __ ] And um my mom obviously saw it because I'm not good at [ __ ] hiding [ __ ] And then uh you got you got your first tattoo at 15? Yeah.

Oh, no [ __ ] My friend had a machine that he bought from some [ __ ] like smoke shop. Okay. And he just tattooed me in his room. It's an eyeball on my thigh. " Cuz it's like Hunter like rearranges like retina, dude. The [ __ ] we come up with. " Um but but I got that and then you know a couple months later she saw it and uh it was she was pissed. She was so pissed like like beyond like I it was like beyond like Yes.

Exactly. She was like she was like she didn't talk to me for forever. She was like really upset with me and she thought I was like some [ __ ] like just degenerate like [ __ ] up kid. " They just assumed the worst of me. I don't know. " But to me, that was the only like guidance I had as a young adult, too. " I hate saying that, but they were the the dudes I looked up to. They were our papas.

Like, you know, honestly, I didn't have any I was living in a city before I was 20 years old, like in a completely different city that I grew up in. And I was like, I needed someone some direction. I had no I was like laying concrete for a living and like [ __ ] drinking every day and being a degenerate, going to jail and [ __ ] Yeah. And if you don't, then you're [ __ ] uh set me on the path to now. And I that was [ __ ] cool. And my parents still dis, you know, my family, my whole family disapproved of it, I think, until I was like I had like a good Saturday. All of a sudden, you were had your own apartment and [ __ ] Yeah. " And then they never [ __ ] gave me [ __ ] about it after that.

And I was like, "Cool. " Isn't that funny? Yeah. And then we were in and then it was like it's like once you start uh like identifying as it it it becomes this whole different thing. You know what I mean? They can't really [ __ ] hate on it if you are a tattooer. How did you end up in that shop? like pursuing apprentichip bug in Cit Cincinnati, you said?

Yeah, in Cincinnati. I Yeah, I so I moved to Cincinnati, Ohio. I was like 18. I was by yourself. I I had a friend that had moved out there and he had a he was like, I need a roommate and I was like I hell yeah, let's go, dude. Yeah. Yeah. So, I packed up a box and moved out there, just drove my [ __ ] car out there and uh he knew a guy that had a concrete pouring business and I was laying concrete and yeah, um I hated that job.

That job sucked it so bad. And then I was like I I was already doing the art thing and like using Instagram and [ __ ] And then uh I was like, well, I need to make money off of my art. That's the only thing I'm good at because I realized very quickly I'm not a skilled laborer. Yeah, I'm very bad at doing construction. I'm not I'm very lazy. I know. Like I'm physically inept. Um yeah, I worked AC for one summer in Las Vegas and I was like, this is [ __ ] terrible, bro.

It's bad. You can't get me to do something I don't want to do. So immediately I just [ __ ] up so much [ __ ] But um so I bugged so I like bugged all these shops around Cincinnati until like I would just hang out there after work every day at a different shop. No [ __ ] Just kind of be a [ __ ] rat. [ __ ] pulled pulled your balls out and walk like a very intimidating environment. I'd bring a [ __ ] sketchbook and I'd draw there. " Oh, okay. Yeah, that's how it [ __ ] works, bro.

Yeah. Yeah, I got my in. Yeah, I was in. Were you pushing when you said you were already doing your art, was that for your graffiti type stuff where we talked about earlier or was that more like I It was just like what kind of what I'm You know what's weird is I was doing more of what I'm doing now back in the day. Oh, okay. And then that got like beat out of me in the beginning. It was very trad, too weird, too. Yeah, exactly.

Like that's not going to work as a It wouldn't have worked as a tattoo. Yeah. Like I was drawing [ __ ] that if I had tattooed that it would have been very bad. Yeah. It would have been too like lines too close together. Like it just wouldn't have worked. And they they I just learned traditionally like American traditional style like you got to do this and do this this way and study this guy and he's did it right. How were some of these the the characters and like you know when you first started getting into these shops and doing your apprentichip like were you around some so weird dude.

Yeah. You were in like more of a biker type environment which is where I came from you know. So the first guy I apprenticed under was a like biker dude but he was like apprentice farming. Okay. Cash on some he made me Oh dude I paid for my apprentichip in the first couple. Well no you're No, I didn't. I didn't. I totally [ __ ] lied.

Yeah. 200 bucks a week. A week. Okay. And I was laying concrete so I was making good money. So I was like, I can do this. Okay. Yeah.

But I would get off of concrete. m. concrete and then I'd get off and immediately come to the shop and work until 10 midnight. Yeah. And then wake up in the morning and [ __ ] Yeah. And then uh it was like Yeah. Yeah. He was a terrible tattooer.

Yeah. And these there was like I learned more from terrible tattooers than I did from good tattooers in my career. I didn't I learned more out of my apprentichip than I did my in my apprentichip. I was a bad tattooer in my as soon as I was out of my apprentichip. Really? Yeah. Well, so cuz I the guy in Cincinnati ended up going to jail uh for fraud. Tight.

Tight. Kind of cool. Yeah. Kind of a sick one. " Yeah. Just to get this [ __ ] done and bounce. Yeah. So, I'm once that fell through, I went back to Houston.

I had Oh, wow. Okay. I'd already known some people in the tattoo world there. Okay. and then got another mentor there and he carried me through until he got fired from the shop that I was working at there and then they canned me because I was his apprentice. Oh jeez. And you tried to hang around for a little bit. I didn't I didn't.

They were He was They were very clear that they want me there too. He fell asleep. Your whole department is canled. Yeah. Yeah. He fell asleep on a tattoo and then I have such a fun story about that. Oh, really? He was super doped up.

He was like bad on the on the dope and and and [ __ ] Not me, but I was near it. No, I I But for real, he was really bad on it. And I And I like Yeah, he just fell asleep on the tattoo while he was tattooing someone's some lady's back. It was so bad. I was there for it and I was like, "Oh my god, dude. " If I was your PR manager, this is a un This is a sink. This is sinking the Titanic right now. coming back from this.

But yeah, and after I got [ __ ] canned from there, I just lied my way into another shop. I had been tattooing. I was like, fresh like you had to do the whole [ __ ] thing or I'm not going to do another apprentice. I was like at that point it had been closer to 3 years of me apprening. Oh god. Yeah. Okay. I'm not doing it again.

I was like at that point I'm like I can figure it out. Sign me out. Yeah. So I had told this other shop I was like I've been tattooing for 5 years. Okay. I lied. Yeah. And then this guy was a psycho, too, who owned this shop.

" Like, no [ __ ] They taught me and I they came up through that way and then uh and then Yeah. " Yeah. Was there ever a moment where you were just like, "Yep, I [ __ ] killed this tattoo right now. I [ __ ] Oh, dude. I remember those moments where or at least I felt that at the moment, you know, I still this day I'm like there's I'm like that was a good one. Yeah. And then the next one you're crying cuz you're like, "Oh, what happened? What happened?

" Every time you feel like you've got a hold of it, it's it's you're [ __ ] done for the next tattoo. Dude, I don't know. I That's just I don't know what I learned about I feel like I've just learned so much about life in general through tattooing, dude. It is the hardest thing I've ever tried to do. Yeah. And it's kicks your ass and also nurtures you and makes you feel so great about yourself at times. And it's it's yeah, I tell people this time relationship, you know, this is the corniest [ __ ] ever, but like tattooing saved my life in a weird way because of where I was at as that at that age in Cincinnati and was just getting in trouble and Yeah. directionless.

Yeah. And it gave me this community and it gave me like uh drive and I can make some money and get an apartment and get a car. Yeah. And without it, I don't know where I'd be. Yeah. I It's It's why I'll never stop tattooing. No matter what other endeavors I'm trying to chase, it's just this is this gave me everything. I'll always give back to it as much as I can.

and and yeah, it's it's a good [ __ ] platform, man. Like, it's fantastic, dude. And like we're dealing with some kind of crazy [ __ ] right now with the changes in Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, overall, I just like there's just been a lot of changes in the industry and stuff. And um I still [ __ ] love it and I'm still driven. Like I feel like it's like a cleansing maybe period where I think if we just try as hard as we can, we're going to [ __ ] figure out our own path again. 100%.

We've been humbled right now with this change in pop. I don't I don't know what it is. I don't It's It's not popularity. It's the way we were able to acquire attention off of what we were doing. It was very good way to put it. Yeah. It's very [ __ ] different right now. Yeah.

5 years ago, we were able to get attention soc. The real true creatives and the the thinkers and the [ __ ] you know, the people that are thinking outside the box and trying really hard are going to survive. They're going to push through it. and these these weak [ __ ] that got in it for the wrong reasons. I don't wish anything ill will or anything up. I don't think that they're going to change their minds. I call them fair weather tattoo. There's a lot of people I think over co especially that were like oh this is a great way to make money as an artist and and I'm like I guess so sure if if that's how you look at it.

But I don't think tattooing is just like a job. I think it's like a this is so corny. I hate saying this, but it is like a lifestyle thing. I totally agree. And I have kind of like a like a little sourness towards anybody that doesn't appreciate and love this [ __ ] this [ __ ] It's hard, dude. Anytime I've ever apprenticed someone, I'm like, you have to appreciate tattooing. You have to [ __ ] like, why do you love this? If you're just doing it to like further yourself, I don't think it's going to work.

You saw it on TV or some [ __ ] or whatever, which is interesting cuz that's a thing. Like I didn't know that was a thing. If you did and it it drag you down the path of like learning about like tattoo history or whatever. Yeah. It's not a bad thing. I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. To be you're doing it to for a selfish reason. I think it's like if you think it's the quick path to getting rich and famous or some [ __ ] the [ __ ] road. You think it's a good way to make money too? I'm like you're [ __ ] wrong, brother. This is not a [ __ ] thing to do, dude. It ain't no joke right now. And like I've just watching some of the most successful, some of the most talented tattooers I've ever seen in my whole entire career struggle.

And I hate that. But we are all going to like if we're driven and we're in love with this [ __ ] till the [ __ ] end, it'll happen, dude. Like we're going to figure it out. Yeah. It'll be all right. You talk to those older heads. Yeah. And they've been through this plenty of times.

you've been tattooing for 40 plus years or like I've been through it time and time again where it's bad and then it's good and then it's bad and it's good. I always relate it to kind of like any old documentaries we watch about like skateboarding or whatever, you know, like skateboarding [ __ ] dipped, but I was still in love with it and I stuck with it and then these people like that's what carries it through. Yeah. It's it's it's like with comic books is like there was like a golden age of comic books, baseball cards, all these type when like comics were like a big [ __ ] thing and it was like booming. There's a comic book shop on every corner in physical, you know, brick and mortar and all of a sudden they just disappeared, dude. And then it and it [ __ ] dipped and it became the [ __ ] silver age where it had was declining in popular.

I think I think we're in the silver age now. Yeah. where it is really just like it's declining and it's it's not as it's not what it used to be. I shouldn't say it's not as I think tattooing is more popular now than it ever has been. Thousand%. Yeah. But there's also a lot more people doing it. Exactly.

And so it's just changed. But comics are still really [ __ ] popular. Like like I don't know. I just am comparing it to that. I mean Hollywood makes it [ __ ] extremely I'm I'm like it just is shifting. It's it's like your ability to make money as an artist is always going to be I think centered around your ability to pivot. Yeah. And so if you're if you're able to pivot, you're able to stay alive.

I think that's always going to be the case for artists. It's never going to be an easy route unless you're extremely lucky and you're in the right place, right time, and you're super talented. You know, one of my favorite thing, well, like one of my personal like draws to you was that you're you had this unique style and we we and right now I'm just I'm I'm still to this day always such a [ __ ] nerd about somebody that's stuck with their guns and like always focused on their own [ __ ] you know? Like we talk about Adam Hawthorne and [ __ ] um Dave Tevinol and you know Adam Turk like all these well I shouldn't he doesn't he doesn't like when you call him Adam but if we're going to call him Turk but uh I don't just these people that those are people that I personally like grew up around Jimmy Litwalk and all these different artists that had these unique beautiful styles that they [ __ ] stuck to dude and they relentlessly pushed it out there.

I think right now all those people are the ones that are surviving, dude. And like all if we didn't like which is I know I think we talked about this earlier too like how difficult it is cuz like my mentors taught us how we needed to try to be like a specialist in every genre. Yeah. And that's a was a very difficult task to be like good at black and gray and good at American traditional. Like there's only a few people that I can even think of that have like seemed to not master but like been able to acquire the skill set in multiple genres like that. Yeah. I I think it's I think niching yourself out is always a good thing. Yeah.

I think I think with it being so I say so but like but just with it being as popular I've always been like I'm never going to be the [ __ ] best tattoo. I'm not I'm not going to be a Gregron. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I'm not going to be any of the people who are like super good at Japanese traditional or any of that. I I I just don't think I have that knack in me to to like master the craft. I think I can I think I can do a good tattoo. You know what I mean?

Like I I want to be able to do a good tattoo, connect with people. And then my interest has always been in just like like making being stylistic like just being having style in any sort of way. And then there we go. Dude, how many like great or is there anybody you can think I mean I'm sure you can but like uh what like what are some major influences as far as illustrators? I don't mean to put you on the spot. Illustrators or tattooers? I'd say illustrators in general cuz I think we should draw. Alex Party.

Alex Party. Really? Okay, cool. That's awesome. No [ __ ] I was here in Vegas a long time ago. [ __ ] love the dude. No [ __ ] Yeah. Such a nice dude.

Such a talented artist. But without him, I don't know if I would be pursuing art. No [ __ ] I met him at like a North Las Vegas like random graffiti group meetup. Yeah. And he was there with a bunch of like European graffiti artists and [ __ ] And I was nerding out. Bro, I still have like little Alex Party um little magazines that he signed for me like in my attic, dude. Like I haven't Dude, I have an email that I sent to him whenever I was 15 or 16. Yeah.

I sent him an email to his blog. Okay. That that he had at the time. And I was like, "Hello, Mr. " That's so tight. What ink do you use? Um and it was and he replied to me. Okay.

and and was so kind and like cool about it and he and he answered my questions and [ __ ] and that meant so much to me as a kid. So Inc. is he tattooed or No, no. Oh, okay. Yeah. Ink in his paintings. " Okay. I asked him like a really annoying question, but he responded and was kind and was and was helpful and that was so cool to me and it showed me like what a good role model could be as an artist.

Oh, that's [ __ ] awesome. It was so sick. And and he just I I don't know. I just I always was just drawn to his [ __ ] And then it I still have some limited prints of his that are framed in my like art space, you know. He's so cool. He's so cool, dude. Like I'll always give him flowers. And then you know the the [ __ ] like the greats like Mobius and Fetta and [ __ ] like those those were huge inspirations.

Victor Castillo and all those those are like the the art side of [ __ ] I pull from Buff Monster side of [ __ ] too and I don't know it was it was stuff like that. Yeah. Cuz you were a graffiti kid growing up too, right? Yeah, I was. Yeah. Uh was never good, but would still try my damnest. Yeah. But I [ __ ] been chased off the side of the freeway.

Yeah. 100% trying to do good [ __ ] Yeah. Was that was why I was going to jail. Yeah. But but but for sure I I honestly think like pulling from outside of tattooing helped me a bunch. Yeah. No, I thousand% cuz it it you know help you find your own unique path within tattooing. Yeah.

It was it was knowing how to make a good tattoo and then pulling from outside of tattooing inspiration cuz tattooing can get very like incestuous. Yeah. On like we start to repeat. We're just doing the same old thing over and over again. And that was the main drive of like My style was like I just want to do [ __ ] that I don't think I've ever seen anyone do before. Any tattooers though that like pop into mind though that you're just Betterman. Uh I don't know if you know of uh I know the name. A wonky tiger was his in is his Instagram name.

He was such a [ __ ] huge inspiration. He he did my arm. Okay. Always like some like weird spaceship. He's like a comic guy. Uh just incredible tattooer. [ __ ] uh where is he based out of? Austin.

Oh, okay. And Tavanol. Yeah. Honky Kong. I love Dave. He's going to be out here for I think he's going to be out for that convention again in November. And I'm I think he's going to be able to come by here. You should He has to.

He loves me. I know you do, Dave. Get your ass out here, bro. Yeah, Dave. Yeah. Yeah. He's a sweetheart. I love him so much.

and so many [ __ ] Oh, I have to [ __ ] give Michelle Wanhala a huge shout out. Uh to me, she was the first person doing what I think my style is derivative of. Okay. She was doing that like weirdo [ __ ] the illustrator weirdo [ __ ] before me. She was the first person I recognized. Yeah. And was like, "Oh, dude, she's killing it. She's so cool.

She's a complete weirdo. Love her to death. But I love that she's her and she's like remained her the whole time. I don't know. Big inspiration. Michelle Wala. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, dude.

There's just like so many great people that have brought us into this and it's fun to like I don't know at this moment like think back and be like dude I [ __ ] gave it to me, man. I I love like Adam Hawthorne like dude he's one of the [ __ ] to me like one of the most influential tattooers in my life like in your sphere. Yeah. In my personal sphere. Yeah. Yeah. Like um dude Dave Tavana too as far as a pusher and a [ __ ] that just like does not give up like Well, yeah. And it gives and gives and gives to it to tattooing, you know, and and everything.

He's just he's just so [ __ ] like talented. It's like annoying how how good he is and stuff. And it I don't know. He was the first person I was like like had style and was like immaculate at I was like that's great. Which is a big deal too cuz a lot of us like I think I've seen a lot of like beautiful illustrators like jump into tattooing and not be able to like adapt to I don't want to say the world of tattooing, but like applying a tattoo is a whole different ballgame. and getting something that sticks and feels right and like looks good over time. Yeah. I've watched a lot of like really talented tattoo or illustrators like try and for whatever reason didn't have like that.

Yeah. To like figure out how to adapt or whatever. that that was always been my thing. Like uh even in my like art career outside of tattooing, um I've always my motto's always been like I everything that I do needs to be able to like I I draw it like I could tattoo it. Yeah. And that's like a that's been like a big [ __ ] thing. Was that a mentor or anything at any point in time that like hammered that into your head or just like But I think it's just the foundation of my art Yeah. was tattooing.

So, like I'm like, well, I I want to be a This is just how I know it. And I I like that and I almost don't want to learn out of it. Oh, yeah. For like the the, you know, memories of it, I guess. So, I'm like I want to be able to [ __ ] make a big painting that I could tattoo on someone's leg if I wanted to. You know what I mean? And that's like a It's cool that way. And I use the same color palettes that I use.

Yeah. In painting that I do with [ __ ] tattooing and stuff. Do you like tattooing on in a smaller scale, like a start to finish project or do you aspire or do much like large scale stuff? I definitely want to do more large scale stuff. Like like I said, like tattooing flash can get really boring. Yeah. And I think I'm at this point now where I'm like I would like to do like bigger pieces. I've started some back.

Yeah. saw like a handful of stuff on your and just and have never really quite seen them through or started some sleeves and whatever. And it's it's it's cool. I just want to get better at it. I I I always this is the cool thing about any like craft is you you're just never going to be like perfect at it and I want to just keep getting better. Do you have a vision for your stuff on larger scale? I mean, I I saw that back piece. I only saw one back piece that you did on your social media and it made sense, but I I want to see your stuff like in sleeves and stuff like Yeah.

I I don't know how it would look like flowwise, you know? I'm such like an advocate for flow. And um Exactly. That's that's the thing. That's the thing I struggle with cuz I can get it to flow on like a singular piece. Yeah. thing. It's like on a back piece you can blow it up and it's still pieces I think are easy cuz it's just like a black.

But a sleeve is a whole different ball game. You got to get the wrap. It's got to fit muscles. It's got to like do this whole thing. And I I haven't quite nailed that down. But I the only way to do it is just do it. Do it. You got to get better at it.

Make people happy that way. I want to though. Yeah. So, okay. Hit me up, brothers. I like it. Yeah. What else?

like where do you see yourself like in the future of tattooing? I don't know. Do you have like any unique aspirations for yourself or like goals and [ __ ] like that that you want to like kind of jump into, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I I think I just want to keep pushing it. I've never had like [ __ ] I've never been that guy to be like, I know exactly where you want to go, where I want to go. I'm just kind of like riding it and then it's it's all by the seat of my pants.

I'm just [ __ ] I if I like it, I'm doing that. But I don't know. Just get bigger and better, get more intricate, and get quicker. Quicker is a big thing. I think you did great tonight. Like, dude, we banged out my side of my knee like pretty [ __ ] fast. I always feel like I tattoo so [ __ ] slow. Yeah.

I don't I don't think so. I think you did fantastic tonight. Like, cuz I'm [ __ ] like, dude, some I was surprised also how bad the side of my knee like didn't bother me at all. Thank god. I was more irritated at my shoulder like just on that [ __ ] skinny ass table. Dude, I think the trick is [ __ ] keeping up conversation, dude. That's such a I think so, too. It's such a good distractor, dude.

If you can talk the whole time, people will forget about how painful it is. " Yeah. Or I Or Yeah. Or I just want to kind of get in my own zone as a client tonight, you know, like just zone out and like not talk. But I totally get it. I was excited to talk to to you and just I don't know. I mean, we were in a great shop tonight. We you did a guest bought at Buddy's shop, Downtown Tattoo in Las Vegas.

And Buddy has a fantastic environment. His shop is beautiful, dude. If you haven't checked it out, it's [ __ ] stellar, dude. It's so good. It's so [ __ ] like it's crushed in flash everywhere. I think we talked about this a little bit. This is really [ __ ] weird, but I've been tattooing for like 25 years and I've never done a guest spot. I've started That's crazy to me.

Yeah. I opened up my shop like 3 years into tattooing and I was like, I can't [ __ ] leave cuz I borrowed a [ __ ] ton of money and I built out a crazy shop and I just could I was so busy I couldn't [ __ ] leave other than doing conventions. I did black out and do like two conventions a month for like years. Uh but like how's your experience and like what do you do you enjoy the the guest spot? Yeah. Yeah. You're thrown in this random environment where back in the day like it could be kind of intimidating. Obviously, you're around a random stranger.

Yeah. So, like personality, dude. I walk in there like my [ __ ] dick's huge and I don't give a [ __ ] dude. I mean, I don't I just don't like letting I'm going in there with zero ego. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just hunter. Like, I'm just hanging out.

We're we're we're here to we'll shoot [ __ ] I'll [ __ ] drink with y'all. I'll [ __ ] do walk-ins if you need me to do walk-ins. Like, whatever you want. I'm here to [ __ ] tattoo and make some money. I think that's a really important thing, you know. That really is. Well, and it pays respect to your environment that you're in, too. You know, you're you're you're not coming in like I'm here to do me and not you.

" Like, from a shop owners perspect, it's like a weird biker shop thing that I like growing up in biker shops. It was like um you you just it's all about respect. It's like if you don't have the respect for your [ __ ] the dudes, then you then they're not gonna have you. Yeah. So then that taught me like, oh, anytime I go to a different shop, it's all about like make yourself as little as possible possible and then just [ __ ] vibe. Yeah. [ __ ] stay humble. Say goodbye to people.

Pay your respects to the people that are doing their [ __ ] in their regular day-to-day life. Like they're there and you're you're in their space, you know? So I'm I'm [ __ ] up their vibes. up their flow cuz I'm like where's the where's the saran wrap you know like uh and that's should I have brought my own saran wrap you know like am I on your [ __ ] right now cartridges you know and it's like you just have to be cool just be a good hang being a good hang has gotten me so far in everything that I that's my biggest that's the one thing I'm confident in I'm confident in nothing else We had a fantastic time tonight, dude. And like I mean, Buddy Shop is such a like good vibe. I [ __ ] love like this is what I love about tattooing, you know? Like my right now I'm in this like little grind where I'm like I just want to get little jams from like all these different tattooers and a lot of my local tattooers that I just I've been headown grinding for so long.

I haven't got out and got tattooed by Buddy. I haven't got out and tattooed by all the fantastic tattooers in his shop or any other shops in my own city. Like I think that's something that we should do and pay respect to our locals like you know and and it kind of like clears up the [ __ ] air you know like you may have heard about me for a long time and I've heard about you and we may have built like weird little [ __ ] stories about each other. That is the weird thing about tattooing. If I come in and and I just want to be a part of your environment and get a little tattoo, like let's [ __ ] do this, dude. Let's bond. It's showing your belly a lot. Yeah.

Like, and I think showing your belly is a good thing where you're like, it takes all the cool guy out of everything. We all got a little space open, you know? Get out there and share it, dude. It's fun. Whatever it is, dude. Even showing face in a shop. A thousand%. " Or like whatever.

I stopped by the shop. I Hey, I brought everyone [ __ ] donuts or whatever. Like that sort of thing goes so far cuz you're just I don't know. Just building [ __ ] relationships. Community, man. Community is so incredibly important. And I like I do feel like there was a handful of people back in the day that would like throw some [ __ ] but I personally remember Buddy showing up at my shop in like 2004 participating in my art shows and stuff at our shop. Like when he was like just starting out like I didn't know that he would he had tattooed less than me.

I always thought he tattooed around the same. It doesn't [ __ ] matter, you know? Like I have the most same amount of respect. But uh it it's just I remember him being there for me. So, it was like really cool to like just kind of be in his shop and like lately and just literally just sit down too also with like all egos aside and just pay my respects like dude's been doing it like doing it for a long [ __ ] time in our city and I and he does such a great job and I [ __ ] love walking in his shop and it's so beautiful, dude. I laid there on my back today getting tattooed by you and I was like there's not a square inch of this shot that's not crushing flash or art. So good, dude. So good.

And all original, correct? If like I believe so. I believe I'm like 99% sure like everything shop is always painting. Always. They're not not doing I love it, dude. Today was like I wanted to I told him, you know, I was like, "Dude, this is like this is this is what tattooing is about. Like your shop is rad, dude. " I mean, I don't know.

I I'm fairly new to knowing a Buddy. Uh, I got introduced to him by my buddy Peter Hawks and Oh, okay. Yeah. Peter's from Reno and lived in Vegas for a while and he was uh Eddie Deutsche's apprentice. No [ __ ] Um, and just like [ __ ] I was like, I'm going to Vegas. My buddies are going to Vegas. I'm going to [ __ ] I'm going to go out there. Do you know like can I tattoo the shop that you tattoo at when you come out here?

And he's like, yeah, dude. asked Buddy and he was I asked Buddy and he was like hell yeah dude any friend of Peter's you know friend of mine and [ __ ] and that immediately like took all the walls down and I'm like oh this is cool let's [ __ ] go and it's just been a pleasant experience dude like that's cool just such a cool shop I would much rather work at a street shop than a than a [ __ ] private studio most of the time and and and this is the to me the like cream of the crop Yeah street shop type [ __ ] Yeah, it's good vibes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that [ __ ] I was telling you about this earlier. Yeah. Let's talk about that, dude. Like where you were at.

You were a part of a a shop before. Yes. And then you I know some like the rent or like things sh Yeah. The the [ __ ] rent got crazy high and they LA they were raising the rent on the shop and it got shut down just cuz it was impossible to pay. Yeah. And um yeah, once that was shutting down, I I jumped ship and opened up my own studio. It's private studio. And that was a that was a it's been a journey.

Yeah. because it's [ __ ] like okay because when you say it's been a journey like were you expecting anything beyond just kind of the comm camaraderie of you working with like a handful of your homies or were you expecting it to or focus on being building it as a business or was it like a I was kind of spot so for the first like 6 months of it it was very easygoing and I could have paid it on my own even without the help And it was like it was chill and I was like, "Got this in the bag. " Yeah. And then it came a point where I think LA was just going through so many hard times. It it it ended up becoming a a hassle and a headache and like just a huge amount of stress. Um and that's between like the artists that were there, it was retaining artists.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is [ __ ] thing. It's crazy. " Yeah. Yeah. At a private studio. Okay.

Okay. " You know, like come come ditch the reliability of the shop that you're at now and work for me. And that's not easy or or feasible for most people to jump over from say a commission shop to like rental. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And and without the like pull cuz this shop is new. Yeah.

Like I don't have any experience of opening up a shop. So I was like this is all very new to me and whatever. And there's just no I'm just so new to it. I think I just have to I had to I I need more time to like work it up and and understand how to do it. But just on top of that, it's just tough. The tattooing I think changed. I think the private studio the allure and the value has almost kind of like it's shifted a little bit. Yeah.

I I think it's just it's become less feasible unless that is your bread and butter and you're like really good at that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Whereas like a walk-in shop in a good area that has notoriety is reliable. I know. Yeah. So, like my shop's still commission based, you know, it seems so old school, but uh you know, we work our butts off and trying to get people to come in. And I take I don't take that lightly, you know, like I love the idea that I can still help tattooers get seats in their, you know, butts in their seats, you know.

Yeah. Um but it is harder than it's ever been in my whole entire career, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And because 20 plus years Yeah. because the shift of uh private studios and everybody just kind of like and and Instagram coming along and uh uh tattooers taking their marketing into their own hands, which back in the day that's like what we did as shop owners is take on the responsibility and the, you know, the idea that we were going to try to help. And then all of a sudden like all my tattooers could go off and do their own thing, you know, which was, you know, so it's it's just interesting because it's it's it's difficult on both sides, you know, and but I mean bottom line, like it's just hard as [ __ ] to get people in your chair, like even if you're a fantastic tattooer and you have a huge following online, like I love unless you're a [ __ ] marketing genius, it's still a grind.

It's a grind, you know, and we're all kind of I think being humbled and Yeah, dude. But we all we'll all pivot. It's it is the name of the game. Like we like we got a little comfortable with how it goes and then you know it shifts on you and then you learn how to [ __ ] make it work another way. And yeah I and I you know we talked about that a lot tonight and I honestly I think it's a good thing. Like I like being challenged dude. I like being I don't like the stress. I don't but I'm I'm grateful for it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. cuz like if you're just chilling and just like things are working. Yeah. Like we get comfortable and the world passes us by. Yeah.

Yeah. 100%. I think um I think if you can withstand then you will be a stronger artist, tattooer, yada yada. And that'll be that's good for you. Yeah. And I think it it it and it's all about just [ __ ] like leaning on your buddies and your fellow tattooers and your dieh hard clients and [ __ ] to just carry yourself through it and hopefully it'll it'll be all right. You'll be okay, dude. Yeah.

We can't sit around and cry about it, man. We just got to figure it out. Be creatives. We're creatives. Yeah. So, let's [ __ ] figure it out, dude. Pick up a second job every once in a while. Yeah.

Whatever, man. Who cares? I'm all about side hustles, dude. Dude, side hustles all the way. All day. You just got to I think we should all have side hustles. It's important to diversify a little bit, but like no one's [ __ ] No one's paying that close attention to you, dude. Go do what you got to do.

Yeah. Push yourself. Make cool art. [ __ ] stay in there as long as you don't give up. It's It's the old skating thing where it's like you didn't you didn't stop skating because you got old, you got old cuz you stopped skating type [ __ ] It's the same thing with tattooing is you see those old [ __ ] my my buddy Jack Watts does a he has a podcast where he he like interviews all these like old head tattooers from uh Europe. Uh and he he tattooed this guy. I'm sorry if I'm mixing up his name, but it's something like George Bones or something. Old English tattooer.

Uh sounds cool. I cannot I don't think that's his right name. But anyway, he he did I was listening to his podcast and he was talking about uh he was like interviewing this old guy from like the [ __ ] before the 80s tattooer. Oh wow. He's just still kicking, still tattooing. And he's like Jack could ask if he [ __ ] stopped if he's ever planning on retiring. He's like why does everyone [ __ ] ask me if I'm going to retire? The only time you'll know if I retire is if some [ __ ] gets a half a tattoo.

And I'm like, that's so sick, dude. That is so [ __ ] cool. You just [ __ ] Dude, just do it. Just keep doing it. Find the inspiration. Find the passion for it and just keep trucking. Yeah, that's all that matters. It's fun, man.

If you're chasing [ __ ] stardom or success or any of that, then you're in the wrong business. Just keep making [ __ ] The people that will will appreciate it will appreciate you. Yeah. And that's all you can worry about. It's the best. Yeah. Yeah. It's [ __ ] cool.

" Yeah. Yeah. Remember this [ __ ] person. They're [ __ ] They were doing weird [ __ ] Can't believe no one heard of this person. in the history of art that's happened a you know that's what I'm saying tattoo history is not very well documented fellas so if you [ __ ] you know pay attention to your local tattooers and your local legends because they might you know not get heard of after this and you should keep tabs on it so that's my PSA yeah dude I [ __ ] love it man I just I don't know man I think I think that's a great [ __ ] ending point you know what I mean like I feel like we could hang out tonight and continue to drink and um let's [ __ ] go. Yeah. I just I don't know. I'm incredibly grateful for meeting unique humans and in tattooing especially like tonight was really [ __ ] awesome, dude.

Great time. It was great for me, too. I I was I was extremely excited to to do this and [ __ ] hang out with you and it's been a blast. It's fun and you know it's scary for us all. Like we're all just trying to like learn and new do new [ __ ] and like this is all still new to me and it's just fun as [ __ ] to like try to put this together and put it out there and hopefully some people appreciate it and um I don't know. I just like I am I'm incredibly flattered that you would take the time to like hang out and you've been somebody that I've followed over the years and always admired your your tenacity and your illustration style and you know and Stop it. It's cool, man. And tonight we [ __ ] bonded, bro.

Like I think we're long siblings. Yeah. The fact that we're from like basically the same [ __ ] neighborhood and all this weird [ __ ] and like I don't know. I'm just like it's just cool and uh you know I just am grateful for what this like weird culture and industry has always brought to me. I'm grateful that you're stoked about it. Yeah, that makes me happy. Being one that's stoked about it makes me stoked. So I don't I don't care.

I I feel like there's a like there's kind of a lack of just reach out and tell someone you you like their [ __ ] these days, you know? Like I really feel like we should be doing that more than ever because it is we're dealing with a like a humbling time, you know, where we no matter how big our following or whatever. " You know, I'm not getting any love like I was used to. We were spoiled for a while. [ __ ] it. Like whatever. Like right now is let it be like the time that we should just be like, "Dude, I just want to let you know like I slide into the DMs all the time. " And people are more responsive than ever right now.

And it's fantastic. I mean, I do I I think people are more responsive no matter what. Dude, the only the only way I've ever gotten to network the way I'veorked is by reaching out. Yeah. And I've gotten rejected plenty of times. And you can't take it personal. Just it is what it is. And you [ __ ] move on.

And dude, I've got people that slid into my DMs and been like, "Yo, you wrote me like a year ago. " It is what it is. And I'm not I'm like I'm not tripping, bro. Like we all have a bunch of [ __ ] going on. You I'm a terrible replier. I'm so bad at it. I will [ __ ] leave people on red. I But it's not anything personal.

I just am like ADHD and [ __ ] to message people back and whatever. And yeah, just don't take that's a lesson to not take anything personal. Yeah, we dude. We can't take anything personal. Like it's just it is what it is. like I got some grumpy old butthole tattooers telling me I'm a turd and I'm like I promise you I'm not man and then all of a sudden they're your best buds like 5 years later or whatever and I'm just not trying to wait around and be sour about [ __ ] Just like just [ __ ] wake up and have a good day, dude. Yeah, keep moving fell. And if you don't [ __ ] you.

I don't know. No, I Yeah, agreed. Yeah, dude. Life's life's [ __ ] good, man. We should be just incredibly [ __ ] happy with the fact that we're able to like make a living making art. Yeah, we're we're extremely lucky. So thankful for that, dude. I get to wake up every day and create in nine different ways and somehow make a living like 100%.

Yeah. I don't need [ __ ] other than like some fresh, clean drinking water and some whiskey or like wine and I'm good to go, dude. There we go. A new t-shirt every once in a while makes me feel fresh as [ __ ] I just need to [ __ ] have a place to live. Yeah, as long as I can pay rent. Yeah, let's go. As long as I can pay rent and McDonald's every once in a while, I'm good. You You don't [ __ ] with In-N-Out Burger or what?

Like I like In-N-Out. That's fine. They don't do They don't do GrubHub, so I I don't [ __ ] order them. Yeah, I'm I'm a [ __ ] for GrubHub. That's awesome. Shout out to GrubHub. But I I don't know. Yeah.

I I think right now has been a nice humbling experience to be like uh you need less than you think you do. Yeah. And uh with how crazy everything is, you just got to [ __ ] ride it out, dude. Reach out to your [ __ ] neighbors. Talk to your people. Be nice to people. Don't show hate. Yeah.

Uh and and take care of each other. I mean I mean that's the most like [ __ ] whitewashy like keep [ __ ] working man on your vision like keep [ __ ] drawing like keep making art like whatever your form of artwork is like just [ __ ] execute dude% daily like it's hard but just keep doing it and hopefully someone will see it and hopefully someone will bite. Yeah. Just be grateful for what you got. Be grateful for the for the clients you got and [ __ ] I don't know. That's such a That's such a big deal because it's a hard thing to do because your ego gets in the way of every single thing that you do. Yeah. Letting your ego go is a [ __ ] big ass deal like in every relationship in your whole entire life.

You'll never do it 100%. It's it's got it's there for and I don't think it should be squashed cuz we need our egos to drive us to like at some point. I know what egoless art looks like, but like but you know, just [ __ ] just just be just be chill. Yeah, we're [ __ ] up. We had a good night tonight. We partied tonight. I just This is really fun though. And uh yeah, thank you again.

Yeah, Mr. Crocodile Jackson, thanks for coming by, dude. We greatly appreciate you, my dude. Thanks, man. Uh, incredibly looking forward to hopefully working with you on some fun projects in the future. So, dude, for sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, man.

Do you didn't tag, you didn't respond, but I was in Mexico City. I was in the pit, the snake pit in in uh Metallica show, and I was wearing your shirt and I sent it to you. The yellow one with the the skull and what did it say? It says, "Life's too hard. Don't try or life's short. " Yeah, I was [ __ ] with [ __ ] dude. I went there [ __ ] backstage. I went like I got Dude, I got to have dinner with James Headfield.

It was [ __ ] epic, bro. " Yeah. Yeah. I'll show it to you tonight. Yeah. And I was like, I happened to be wearing your shirt there, the yellow one, and it everybody was in yellow and black cuz you know that was like the tour colors for the last tour. Yeah. [ __ ] me, dude.

Yeah, dude. It was [ __ ] awesome. It don't mean [ __ ] man. That's awesome, man. But I was thinking about you and I [ __ ] like I love that shirt. And that's so [ __ ] sweet, man. I'm always I'm always so stoked cuz I'm like I'm just such a bad communicator whenever people are like I don't know. Whenever that happens, I'm just like [ __ ] I don't know.

I was probably It probably didn't look like [ __ ] even if you saw the picture. Well, I don't know. I probably saw it. I'm [ __ ] here, bro. This is the best day of my life. and I'm wearing your shirt. I don't know, dude. I think about it all the time.

Like someone will send me like a really sentimental message and I'm like, "Dude, you probably sent that to me while I was like jacking off or something and I'm like I can't [ __ ] Well, I'm going to respond to you postnut. That's not cool. Like that's a [ __ ] real right there. I'm going to embarrass the [ __ ] out of you. Good, good, good, good, good, good, good. Yeah. So, yeah. No, cool.

Once again, thank you guys so much for tuning in. I appreciate you. Um, this was a great experience. Uh if if you [ __ ] need anything, slide in the DMs, my dudes. Yeah, right, my dude. Hey, dude. Squeaky wheel gets the oil or whatever the [ __ ] that saying is. Yep.

So, where do we find you? Like what you what do we you go to your website? Uh crocodile Jackson on Instagram. com on in on the internet and then uh FlashFriends Instagram. Our next interview, we're going to get the Crocodile Jackson story. We forgot to get that tonight, but yes. And if you use Crocodile Jackson uh on your order of Maverick Tattoo Supply, you'll get 100% discount. Don't listen to this [ __ ] Peace.

Thank you guys.