Maverick ZINE — Tattoo Culture, Art & Artist Stories

in Houston especially, it was whatever was coming through the door. It was a lot of black and gray [ __ ] It was a lot of realism. It was a lot of [ __ ] script and okay, Pinterest. That was the majority of my money was coming from that. And then there was a switch where I was like, I'm just going to focus on making weird flash. And if you get that, then we're [ __ ] tight, dude. Like, it's going down. We're doing some cool [ __ ] And then it started to like pick up that way where I I think people started to appreciate me doing dumb flash ended up becoming like I'm just dropping flash and people are getting the flash.

[Music] What's happening? Thank you for coming to support your local tattooer tonight. My man Crocodile Jackson's in the house. We had a few drinks tonight. It was been a while. We've been We've been hanging out all day. I got tattooed. Um super excited about this.

We went out to dinner. We had some drinks. We're Dude, we raided the Maverick Warehouse in the middle of the night. We're here to do this podcast um show, whatever you want to call it. Thanks so much for tuning in. Let's [ __ ] get down to the nitty-gritty and like hang out with our homie Crocodile Jackson. So, how y'all love [ __ ] Cheers, dude. Cheers, y'all.

" Very fun time. Yeah, this is this is fun. This is like We've been trying to loosen up over here and just have a good time and uh you know, get down to like I don't know, just like where we came from and what we're doing and why we're even here. The brass tags, dude. The brash tags. The brass. Yeah, we [ __ ] broed down tonight. We didn't realize that neither.

Like both of us are from Houston. We have so much in common. Yeah. I'm pretty positive our dads are the same dad. Pretty positive. We don't want 23 and me. We're going to find out that we are long lost siblings or cousins or some [ __ ] Yeah, it was funny. It was like he's doing uh so Crocodile Jackson, Mr.

Well, Hunt. Do we go we go by Hunter? Yeah. Yeah, you can go by Hunter. I don't ever tell anyone the name. Okay. But that's I do I should because people come in and they're like I'm here for crocodile crocodile and I'm like that's feel that's weird. I love it though.

Yeah. No, I I Yeah, Hunter is fine. I I should I should embrace that more. Genuine. I'm so excited. Like dude, tonight was was fun as [ __ ] Like I literally just reached out to you just cuz I just been a fan of your artwork. We've been we've been carrying actually your products for a while, like your fun uh your um your card collection, your flash friends collection, and they're super amazing, dude. The amount of people that you have involved in that project, I [ __ ] know how hard it is to wrangle cats.

Thank you, dude. Aka tattooer [ __ ] dude. Dude, whoa. You're the first person to ever say wrangling cats because it is it does feel like that. Like I We're chaos and we know each other. Like we know how like our brains work. Like you you were literally wrangling cats. Like when you're putting together fantastic, creative, unique characters all to one project, the amount of attention it takes and drive it takes to like get us all to like do one thing.

It ain't no joke, dude. I'm I'm I think I'm really fortunate though because everyone that has participated has been extremely chill and on time for the most part. Like there is there is, you know, outliers that I have to like hunt down and people that I really want in the thing to be like, I I got to like hit you up and whatever, but but for the most part, people are like super game, which I was not expecting. Uh and that's [ __ ] cool. Let's get down to that a little bit more. Like I I I just have a whole lot of respect for this and I know this project is a big deal for you too and uh like so Okay. So, how before we get into like your history of tattooing and everything like how the [ __ ] did this h this particular project happens? Yeah.

Yeah. Dude, it it it purely came out of like I'm a big magic nerd. Uh, and it it's I just play Magic all the time with my friends and I'm a big collector of cards and [ __ ] Like that's cool. I'm a chachki guy. I like collecting [ __ ] And one day I was justing chilling thinking about it. " Yeah. I mean, at least not like, you know, the general population. Tattoo nerds collect Flash.

Yeah. " And it was a pipe dream, dude. For the longest time, believe it or not, I I got all the art for the first set and did nothing with it for an entire year. No [ __ ] Because I was like, "This is stupid. " Oh, I I was for real artist insecurity. Like I was so hard on myself. I was like, this is so dumb. What the [ __ ] was I thinking?

Yeah. And then it was just one day I was like, I'm just going to [ __ ] make it. I [ __ ] threw down, got it made, and everyone was super stoked on it, and I I'm like, well, I'm going to keep going. Yeah. And uh and we're here. We're I'm like two and a half sets in. How many artists to like I not looking for like direct numbers but like you have like a couple hundred artists, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I have about 300 now. Holy [ __ ] dude. I have the first set was 60, the second set was uh 82 and then the the half set that I did in the Netherlands was like Oh, I didn't I didn't even know about that. Very secret very secret set. Okay. I like it. I did it for the True Blue convention. Uh for everyone that was participating in that convention, we did it exclusively for the True Blue guys.

Uh who Bob is like super cool. " So I got everyone in that convention to do it and then we just released that in the Netherlands and it was really really cool. Um so including that around 200 300 people. Uh, yeah. But official sets, that's a fuckload of emails between, dude. Dude, I know exactly how that is. I'm not good at emails. There was so many like And there's also like I I always, you know, I'm always shooting for people outside of uh America.

Like I try to every for the past two sets I've tried to get people from every I try to get as many states as possible to just showcase like maybe different stylistic hubs across America. Yeah. And it's the same for the for the world. Like I love finding the like Korean folks who are doing [ __ ] and the sp the Spanish people who are doing [ __ ] and so on and so forth cuz there's I was always so interested in the little bubbles of style. They're happening all over the place like little niche like Exactly. And it's just it's so cool. And that was originally the main interest of Flash Friends where I was like I'm gonna I just wanted to showcase style bubbles. Okay.

People that are style pushers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like Yeah. " Whoa. Ended up becoming Flash friends. Yeah.

No [ __ ] Yeah. So, like the whole con were we just partying one night or like where did the like the Flash Friends concept come from? Like I'm not I'm not joking. I was taking a [ __ ] I forgot my phone. Okay. And it's one of those weird moments where you're like, I'm you're left with your thoughts. " Yeah. So, if so, for anybody that's listening that doesn't like know what we're even talking about, Flash Friends is like a like basically like baseball cards of tattooers and their artist style.

Not so much about them, but more about their illustration styles and like nerding out on their uniqueness in our our community. Just showcasing Flash. Yeah. Just Flash. just cool flash from people all over the world. Some of it you might not think is like the coolest flash in the world, but it is something I think is important me personally where I'm like, "Oh, this person inspired me to some extent and it's like yeah, that's all I really want the just showing the full range of what Flash looks like. " Yeah. Well, yeah.

We we spend a lot of time and energy on flash events and stuff from Photoshop and I think it's just super fun and old. Well, I don't know if it's considered old school now or like I hate to throw that out there, but I'm curious about that. Yeah. I'm like an exclusively flash tattooer. Like I hardly ever do custom pieces. Okay. And it's like I don't know. That's just the way I've always operated.

And I'm like this is cool. So you'll draw pre and then display and then your clients will be able to like choose from. Yeah. I'm like I'm open for these designs. Let's do it. And then I do those and then it's it's fun. So like tonight like when I I I rolled into the shop and I was like uh so a little backstory on he he was passing through town and I just randomly was like you know what I [ __ ] love this dude. Like I don't know you but you know like uh I wanted to reach out and just touch base and see if you were open to do a little random tattoo and you drew it on and it was super fun.

Yeah. Uh that's how I love to tattoo. So it was very I don't do it very often. cuz you were like as soon as I said draw it on it really was like hell yeah let's do this [ __ ] like cuz I haven't done it and I mean I I I've done it I do it every once in a while but whenever I do get the opportunity of and I knew you were going to be like game for whatever we ended up doing and and how do you think we knew that like how do you think how do we read our customer like how do we read our clients just from the limited interactions that we've we've had online it's not like we've had a whole lot but like I think you knew that Even with clients where you're like, they're cool. Yeah. They'll let me do what I want. It's a vibe. Whatever you want to call it, like you just feel it out like pretty quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. And and and getting to do that makes me feel cuz doing Flash is not like doing exclusively Flash is taxing because you're you're kind you're repeating a lot. Yeah. You're doing like a lot of the same thing over and over again. And it does get very boring. I always compare that to musicians. I'm like, I don't know anything about making music.

Yeah. I'm just like wondering like how many times they can play those hits cuz like you us as illustrators like how many how many like we do a few drawings maybe a couple times but not like nightly. You know what I mean? Could you imagine doing the same [ __ ] drawing over and over and over? The worst is I think it would be so taxing on us. 100%. The worst is doing like a guest spot and then like multiple people in that same city want the same design. Oh, no [ __ ] Like do you feel guilty about it or is it more like you know what's weird is I I don't know if you remember but I do remember like a part of coming up was like there was like it was almost like frowned upon on like repeating flash.

Yeah. Do you remember this era of tattooing? I was in a weird moment where or I don't know like in time in tattooing where the flash was on the walls but everything in inside of us and at the time was like we don't want to do the flash. We want to do our own [ __ ] So I constantly was pushing myself to prove myself to the client that I can draw heard whatever Cory Miller did on the wall or whatever you know Cherry Creek type [ __ ] you want. I I can draw my own version of this for you right now. Interesting. And I would do it right [ __ ] then. and stress myself out which would force me to like be a better illustrator you know so and it would make the client feel super special so everyone was winning yeah that was there was a switch whenever I was doing walk-ins it was never it was never flashbased it was always just like whatever do whatever yeah your version right well no no dude no one wanted my [ __ ] in the beginning but it was excited to talk about that in Houston especially, it was whatever was coming through the door.

It was a lot of black and gray [ __ ] It was a lot of realism. It was a lot of [ __ ] script and okay, Pinterest. So, that was just all that was the majority of my money was coming from that. And then there was a switch where I was like, I'm just going to focus on making weird flash and if you get that, then we're [ __ ] tight, dude. Like, it's going down. And then it started picked [Music] up becoming like I'm just dropping flash and people are getting the flash. Dude, so the energy that you're putting out there though as far as like convincing the client to do your own thing, I think that's so incredibly powerful. You're not being [ __ ] lazy.

you're being actually like the hard worker dude that's like, "No, like I can draw this like this way, you know, and even if it's [ __ ] weird and it's something that they've never seen before, ever, like I" And they feel that [ __ ] dude. And I think so, too. Yeah. And that's what drives the attention to be, you know, like, "Let's follow this dude. " And I think that's how I always looked at it, dude. Yeah. For me, it's been the whole package of like selling yourself. Yeah.

more than anything else. Like like you're you're you're selling your art, but you're also selling your like uh your vibe, what you do on a daily basis and connecting with people and all this [ __ ] And that was like a Are we allowed to curse? Yeah. Well, I don't know how to not curse. Oh, okay, cool. I just I just said it and I was like, that's [ __ ] up. Oops. Um, but it really is like selling yourself.

Like I I I always say I don't think I'm like the greatest artist. I I don't think I'm a good artist. I don't think we ever need to be. Right. I don't want that ego, but I do think I'm like a The part I am confident in is like being a [ __ ] weirdo and like and a connector to your I at least can like be a friendly guy. Yes. I can be a friend and that's I think I think that's my biggest strength in anything and that's uh yeah I think that's that's mainly how I sell I think we bonded a lot about that tonight just about like how we just put ourselves out there and that's all you can [ __ ] do is just like share what you're doing and even if it's weird and your peers may not be into it or your hater ass [ __ ] neighbor might not be into it but like all we can do is just [ __ ] put it out there and if someone's receptive to it it's so incredibly heart fulfilling, you know, and it's so fun to get like I don't know.

It's kind of like dating. You ask out a million people and if one is not a million but like a hundred, you know? A million. Dude, I [ __ ] a lot. I gets down, bro. You know what I mean? You put yourself out there and you and you just you try to just keep a clear head and just try to [ __ ] vote for that one person. It is, but it's also thickened our skin, dude.

And like we talked a lot about tonight like just about how we've thickened our skin through tattooing and how that's helped us out in our lives in general and stuff too. It was fun as [ __ ] Yeah. I don't I don't think that's like it's not an easy road to pave for yourself. I guess I think it's it's I can't tell you how many times getting to now that I've had like tattooers who I thought were cool Yeah. " You [ __ ] me up, dude. Like, this is a traumatic experience for me. But, but it was like, but I was confident in it. I was like, I can whatever, dude.

It's never about like being confident in the moment. It's just like, I'm doing this and I like this and it's making me feel a certain type of way. And if someone connected with it to get it etched onto their body, then that's all that really [ __ ] matters. Yeah. At the end of the day, like, you know, like I think that's the coolest part about it because it it always to me feels like an experimentation more than just whatever there. And it's this like fine line of like pushing like even with Flash Friends, it's not so like I don't want to disregard the old world of tattooing ever. Yeah. I'm such a fan of how we've gotten to this point.

Yeah. And if you try to push style without understanding how we got here, I think you get to a really weird place that no one respects because you're being too ignorant. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just I'm an idiot. Don't listen whatever however I say it. " Yes.

You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Yeah. Our energy as artists is always to do things our own [ __ ] way. But the idea that we can pay respects to how we were learned and learned, how we were taught, that's the most southern [ __ ] I've heard. How we was learn. But yeah, like how we were taught to do something uh like basically take on the great responsibility of doing a tattoo that's going to be on our clients forever. So if we can take like I only know to like Japanese and American traditional style, if I can take those basic formulas and apply them in our funky weird illustration format, but still pay respects to that, then hopefully that [ __ ] tattoo will still look good 10 years from now.

Totally. You know, I [ __ ] up some bad tattoos, I'm sure. Like, yeah, I think we all have. But I [ __ ] up a tattoo today. It's on my [ __ ] knee, bro. Yeah, it was your tattoo. Yeah. No, I don't know.

It's like I think that's a I know what you're saying. It's It's at the end of the day, you need to have that in mind, too, of it being like, "This is your tattoo. " I think that should always be at the focus. Like you're the shepherd. Yeah. But like my my old boss told me he's like, "Dude, they want a [ __ ] sandwich, you give them a [ __ ] sandwich. " Yeah. But they're going to want a [ __ ] sandwich at the end of the day.

It's such a gray area. I mean, it is it is what it is. Yeah. And then even whenever you're working with clients that like want your stuff, they're going to tend to take it out of the realm that you're comfortable in or or the realm that you think is going to look good. Yeah. Sometimes some clients are just like hellbent on getting what they want and they think that you can do it. Yeah. Meanwhile, you're I'm not that great of an illustrator, you know?

Like, okay, so like Yeah. [ __ ] Let's jump all around. We're going to jump all around tonight. Yeah, we've been partying all night long. Uh, so your like your style is you I'm I'm I'm such a nerd and I'm in love with like unique illustrators that have um been patient and worked their way through tattooing and built up their own following and stuff. It like how often are you dealing with people that are like, "I love your style. " [ __ ] more often than you think. Yeah.

Isn't it? I I would think it's still a thing for every human that's tattooing. So that's what I'm telling you. I think people like me more than my art a lot of the time, which is Dude, cool. Yeah. But I am also like, why did you come to me for this? That is very great. I'm not going to turn that.

Yeah. So, how often do you ever try to do you ever try to switch up your [ __ ] Like I mean your dude I can the the the the thing I'm grateful for is working in street shops for the majority of my career and being able to do stuff like I I'm pretty confident I could knock out some cool like black and gray realism. Really? No [ __ ] Okay. I'm fairly It's not I've dabbled and like got some [ __ ] done where the client's happy and I'm happy. But I could make I could get it done. Yeah, I could get it done. Is it gonna be worldrenown or would I charge you a good rate for that?

No. I would probably charge you well less. I'd probably feel bad. But no, I could get it done. I I genu like no all jokes aside, I think I could do an okay job at it. Yeah. If I was at a street shop. Okay.

And I think that's like important to know to be like as wellrounded as possible, but also specialize in your [ __ ] Yeah. " Yeah. And I'd be like, "I've never done no matter what time in I've never done lettering on a belly. Uh, I'm very terrified right now. your diarrhea in your stomach is building up. You're sweating and then all of a sudden you're just like, "Yes, ma'am. " Let's do this. In the very I was still an apprentice.

I remember this girl wanted like a bird on her like upper right shoulder. And uh I got like 15 minutes into the tattoo and I had a full-on panic attack and [ __ ] left. I'm not joking. like bounced like out of the shop. I told the other guy that was there, I was like, "Jason, you got to finish this tattoo. Get the [ __ ] out. " Where did you go? I don't know how I didn't get fired.

I know. I'm not going to lie. " Like, I don't know, dude. I patient way over my head. I was I I did like three lines on it. Yeah. and they were the most [ __ ] up wobbly lines I ever and then I was like I can't dude that specifically reminds me of the first time I did a dude's throat. He wanted like some graffiti [ __ ] and I like grew up doing graffiti but you know whatever.

I don't know. I'm also a year into tattooing and I'm now all of a sudden going to do like throat your throat all the way across your [ __ ] dude. I still I I remember every [ __ ] moment of that tattoo. I remember sweat like I I'm pretty sure my sweat dripped down onto his face while I was tattooing him. It was so roguish. But uh like I got through it and and it I was forced to because my boss at the time was that old school boss where he was like, "Bro, like this dude's here. " Yeah. To blast his whole entire throat, like seven letters across his throat.

So I drew it [ __ ] on, dude. like a year and a half into tattooing and like terrified [ __ ] more like so scared mainly because I was like in a [ __ ] rough ass shop and like my boss was like your little [ __ ] ass is going to do this tattoo and then you're going to go home and be happy because you made $150 or whatever the [ __ ] Yeah, right. You made you made 40% of that money. But dude, that [ __ ] is terrifying. But it built that character, dude. pushes you through the hardest scariest [ __ ] dude. Work through that. I I I think tattooing is like 90% confidence.

A thou dude. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like like I think it is. It really is like that moment after that I was like I'm never doing that again. I'm going to [ __ ] my So what happened? Like how the [ __ ] did that end up? Like did you come back in the next day?

Shout out Jason. Shout out Tattoo Jason [ __ ] Houston. Uh we worked at this shop called Fat Cats. was owned by this guy named Rusty who rest in peace was an old biker guy. All right. And uh yeah, he uh Jason saved my ass cuz he he jumped in and finished the tattoo. And I was Do you The lady was like Yeah. Did he say what the client was going on?

She was like horrified, but he crushed it. He showed me the tattoo afterwards. I was like took the cash. Thank God. 100% pay to 15 minutes worth of cash. Hey, bro. I put in 20 on this. I think I need about 40 bucks from that.

Uh but no, he he jumped in and saved my ass and and that was [ __ ] really cool cuz I would have panicked if I I was there alone. I was in way over my head. They should not have let me do that. Um and I my mentor wasn't even there. Like of course no mentors were there when we back in the day. But I was like I was like dude no don't let me we're all suffering from absent daddy, you know? Yeah. like that.

My dude was never there either and I'm dealing with it menace, dude. Jesus. But he uh it it taught me a good I think the thing that it did teach me was boundaries on on my scope of ability. Like I wasn't able I know what I wasn't able to do from then on. I was like I'm not able to do ribs. I don't think I'm there yet. Yeah. And then whenever I was more confident, I would take on stuff like, you know, like incredibly valuable.

Exactly. Honestly, instead of fighting, I I I'm glad I I honestly am glad I had the that that panic attack for the client's sake because if I had followed through with it, I would have [ __ ] the whole tattoo up. " And I, you know, cornered myself. Pretty wild. Yeah, that's pretty wild. That's [ __ ] insane. " Um, John's going to finish this up. He just comes out of the bag with his [ __ ] meat apron on and he's just That would honestly be kind of sick.

I heard about this [ __ ] some tag team [ __ ] dude. I heard I'll do the outline, you do the coloring. I thought about that way back in the day. Like a system. Let's do this. Yeah. Yeah. I I heard about this tattooer.

I'm not going to name his name, but I heard about this tattooer whenever I moved to LA who uh I had tattooed a client and she was like, I went to go get a tattoo from him and whenever I show up to his studio, uh it was just a guy there. " And he goes in the back room and he comes out and there's a guy with a mask on and like a whole get up. It was just that dude that was right there and he he had a whole facade that he put on and that's how he tattoo people. He would tattoo them a luchador mask and [ __ ] Is that too LA for me? Is that too LA for you? " And then I just go and put a mask on. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Yeah.

And I I've always been like, that's cool. I like a good I like a good a stick. It's [ __ ] I like a good stick. That's dumb, though. Oh, man. Dude. So, okay. So, one thing we like to do here is just get down to kind of I love listening and hearing about where the [ __ ] we came from and like how you got into this [ __ ] Like so like how do you have any early memories of like being exposed to tattooing or tattoos in general that were funky and weird or fun?

Tattoo magazines. Yeah. Just like walking into convenience stores and seeing tattoo magazines. That was like next to the porno too, which is funny. It was only porno and tattoo. The reason why I was there was nudie mags. And then it was the tattoo. I was like, "Well, I can't get the nudie mags.

" Yeah, but it was it was also like my grandparents who were in the biker culture and and all that [ __ ] and then uh and they had tattoos and then they would their friends would show me their tattoos and I was just always kind of like oh that's [ __ ] cool. I always thought they were really tough looking and I was Do you remember seeing like your first badass tattoo that you were just like that [ __ ] is like my [ __ ] peep? Oh, my grandpa. Yeah, dude. He had this [ __ ] I didn't know what it was for the longest time, but it was like that old school style of like having like one forearm tattoo, one upper arm tattoo, and that was like the only tattoos you ever got, right? But he had this like [ __ ] blob of a like blue cuz he got it in the military and [ __ ] And uh it just was like it looked like a blob.

But I always just thought he was tough like because he to me was this like tough Texas dude blah blah blah. Yeah. And uh I didn't ask him what it was until I was like in my 20s really. And I was like what is that? He was like oh it's a pirate head and and and after he told me I was like oh I could see my whole life. It was like a shack ink blot type thing. And at the same time, they were also very discouraging of me getting into tattooing. Really, they really did not want me to do it.

I was like, and I was like, do you started expressing it at a young age that you wanted to get into it or no? Uh, no. No. Or just I I had I think I had carried that with me to where I was like, I'm not going to do tattooing. Like I like whatever. That's for that's for like the wild people. Yeah. That was the mentality I had like as a, you know, younger teenager.

And then is that some Texas [ __ ] or what? Cuz I don't know, dude. Dude, my dad's mom didn't talk to him for years when she found out we were opening a tattoo shop. Oh, dude. See, I'm I'm I'm talking to be like disowned by your mother because you want to get into tattooing. I got into my first I got my first tattoo whenever I was 15. No [ __ ] And um my mom obviously saw it because I'm not good at [ __ ] hiding [ __ ] And then uh you got you got your first tattoo at 15? Yeah.

Oh, no [ __ ] My friend had a machine that he bought from some [ __ ] like smoke shop. Okay. And he just tattooed me in his room. It's an eyeball on my thigh. " Cuz it's like Hunter like rearranges like retina, dude. The [ __ ] we come up with. " Um but but I got that and then you know a couple months later she saw it and uh it was she was pissed. She was so pissed like like beyond like I it was like beyond like Yes.

Exactly. She was like she was like she didn't talk to me for forever. She was like really upset with me and she thought I was like some [ __ ] like just degenerate like [ __ ] up kid. " They just assumed the worst of me. I don't know. " But to me, that was the only like guidance I had as a young adult, too. " I hate saying that, but they were the the dudes I looked up to. They were our papas.

Like, you know, honestly, I didn't have any I was living in a city before I was 20 years old, like in a completely different city that I grew up in. And I was like, I needed someone some direction. I had no I was like laying concrete for a living and like [ __ ] drinking every day and being a degenerate, going to jail and [ __ ] Yeah. And if you don't, then you're [ __ ] uh set me on the path to now. And I that was [ __ ] cool. And my parents still dis, you know, my family, my whole family disapproved of it, I think, until I was like I had like a good Saturday. All of a sudden, you were had your own apartment and [ __ ] Yeah. " And then they never [ __ ] gave me [ __ ] about it after that.

And I was like, "Cool. " Isn't that funny? Yeah. And then we were in and then it was like it's like once you start uh like identifying as it it it becomes this whole different thing. You know what I mean? They can't really [ __ ] hate on it if you are a tattooer. How did you end up in that shop? like pursuing apprentichip bug in Cit Cincinnati, you said?

Yeah, in Cincinnati. I Yeah, I so I moved to Cincinnati, Ohio. I was like 18. I was by yourself. I I had a friend that had moved out there and he had a he was like, I need a roommate and I was like I hell yeah, let's go, dude. Yeah. Yeah. So, I packed up a box and moved out there, just drove my [ __ ] car out there and uh he knew a guy that had a concrete pouring business and I was laying concrete and yeah, um I hated that job.

That job sucked it so bad. And then I was like I I was already doing the art thing and like using Instagram and [ __ ] And then uh I was like, well, I need to make money off of my art. That's the only thing I'm good at because I realized very quickly I'm not a skilled laborer. Yeah, I'm very bad at doing construction. I'm not I'm very lazy. I know. Like I'm physically inept. Um yeah, I worked AC for one summer in Las Vegas and I was like, this is [ __ ] terrible, bro.

It's bad. You can't get me to do something I don't want to do. So immediately I just [ __ ] up so much [ __ ] But um so I bugged so I like bugged all these shops around Cincinnati until like I would just hang out there after work every day at a different shop. No [ __ ] Just kind of be a [ __ ] rat. [ __ ] pulled pulled your balls out and walk like a very intimidating environment. I'd bring a [ __ ] sketchbook and I'd draw there. " Oh, okay. Yeah, that's how it [ __ ] works, bro.

Yeah. Yeah, I got my in. Yeah, I was in. Were you pushing when you said you were already doing your art, was that for your graffiti type stuff where we talked about earlier or was that more like I It was just like what kind of what I'm You know what's weird is I was doing more of what I'm doing now back in the day. Oh, okay. And then that got like beat out of me in the beginning. It was very trad, too weird, too. Yeah, exactly.

Like that's not going to work as a It wouldn't have worked as a tattoo. Yeah. Like I was drawing [ __ ] that if I had tattooed that it would have been very bad. Yeah. It would have been too like lines too close together. Like it just wouldn't have worked. And they they I just learned traditionally like American traditional style like you got to do this and do this this way and study this guy and he's did it right. How were some of these the the characters and like you know when you first started getting into these shops and doing your apprentichip like were you around some so weird dude.

Yeah. You were in like more of a biker type environment which is where I came from you know. So the first guy I apprenticed under was a like biker dude but he was like apprentice farming. Okay. Cash on some he made me Oh dude I paid for my apprentichip in the first couple. Well no you're No, I didn't. I didn't. I totally [ __ ] lied.

Yeah. 200 bucks a week. A week. Okay. And I was laying concrete so I was making good money. So I was like, I can do this. Okay. Yeah.

But I would get off of concrete. m. concrete and then I'd get off and immediately come to the shop and work until 10 midnight. Yeah. And then wake up in the morning and [ __ ] Yeah. And then uh it was like Yeah. Yeah. He was a terrible tattooer.

Yeah. And these there was like I learned more from terrible tattooers than I did from good tattooers in my career. I didn't I learned more out of my apprentichip than I did my in my apprentichip. I was a bad tattooer in my as soon as I was out of my apprentichip. Really? Yeah. Well, so cuz I the guy in Cincinnati ended up going to jail uh for fraud. Tight.

Tight. Kind of cool. Yeah. Kind of a sick one. " Yeah. Just to get this [ __ ] done and bounce. Yeah. So, I'm once that fell through, I went back to Houston.

I had Oh, wow. Okay. I'd already known some people in the tattoo world there. Okay. and then got another mentor there and he carried me through until he got fired from the shop that I was working at there and then they canned me because I was his apprentice. Oh jeez. And you tried to hang around for a little bit. I didn't I didn't.

They were He was They were very clear that they want me there too. He fell asleep. Your whole department is canled. Yeah. Yeah. He fell asleep on a tattoo and then I have such a fun story about that. Oh, really? He was super doped up.

He was like bad on the on the dope and and and [ __ ] Not me, but I was near it. No, I I But for real, he was really bad on it. And I And I like Yeah, he just fell asleep on the tattoo while he was tattooing someone's some lady's back. It was so bad. I was there for it and I was like, "Oh my god, dude. " If I was your PR manager, this is a un This is a sink. This is sinking the Titanic right now. coming back from this.

But yeah, and after I got [ __ ] canned from there, I just lied my way into another shop. I had been tattooing. I was like, fresh like you had to do the whole [ __ ] thing or I'm not going to do another apprentice. I was like at that point it had been closer to 3 years of me apprening. Oh god. Yeah. Okay. I'm not doing it again.

I was like at that point I'm like I can figure it out. Sign me out. Yeah. So I had told this other shop I was like I've been tattooing for 5 years. Okay. I lied. Yeah. And then this guy was a psycho, too, who owned this shop.

" Like, no [ __ ] They taught me and I they came up through that way and then uh and then Yeah. " Yeah. Was there ever a moment where you were just like, "Yep, I [ __ ] killed this tattoo right now. I [ __ ] Oh, dude. I remember those moments where or at least I felt that at the moment, you know, I still this day I'm like there's I'm like that was a good one. Yeah. And then the next one you're crying cuz you're like, "Oh, what happened? What happened?

" Every time you feel like you've got a hold of it, it's it's you're [ __ ] done for the next tattoo. Dude, I don't know. I That's just I don't know what I learned about I feel like I've just learned so much about life in general through tattooing, dude. It is the hardest thing I've ever tried to do. Yeah. And it's kicks your ass and also nurtures you and makes you feel so great about yourself at times. And it's it's yeah, I tell people this time relationship, you know, this is the corniest [ __ ] ever, but like tattooing saved my life in a weird way because of where I was at as that at that age in Cincinnati and was just getting in trouble and Yeah. directionless.

Yeah. And it gave me this community and it gave me like uh drive and I can make some money and get an apartment and get a car. Yeah. And without it, I don't know where I'd be. Yeah. I It's It's why I'll never stop tattooing. No matter what other endeavors I'm trying to chase, it's just this is this gave me everything. I'll always give back to it as much as I can.

and and yeah, it's it's a good [ __ ] platform, man. Like, it's fantastic, dude. And like we're dealing with some kind of crazy [ __ ] right now with the changes in Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, overall, I just like there's just been a lot of changes in the industry and stuff. And um I still [ __ ] love it and I'm still driven. Like I feel like it's like a cleansing maybe period where I think if we just try as hard as we can, we're going to [ __ ] figure out our own path again. 100%.

We've been humbled right now with this change in pop. I don't I don't know what it is. I don't It's It's not popularity. It's the way we were able to acquire attention off of what we were doing. It was very good way to put it. Yeah. It's very [ __ ] different right now. Yeah.

5 years ago, we were able to get attention soc. The real true creatives and the the thinkers and the [ __ ] you know, the people that are thinking outside the box and trying really hard are going to survive. They're going to push through it. and these these weak [ __ ] that got in it for the wrong reasons. I don't wish anything ill will or anything up. I don't think that they're going to change their minds. I call them fair weather tattoo. There's a lot of people I think over co especially that were like oh this is a great way to make money as an artist and and I'm like I guess so sure if if that's how you look at it.

But I don't think tattooing is just like a job. I think it's like a this is so corny. I hate saying this, but it is like a lifestyle thing. I totally agree. And I have kind of like a like a little sourness towards anybody that doesn't appreciate and love this [ __ ] this [ __ ] It's hard, dude. Anytime I've ever apprenticed someone, I'm like, you have to appreciate tattooing. You have to [ __ ] like, why do you love this? If you're just doing it to like further yourself, I don't think it's going to work.

You saw it on TV or some [ __ ] or whatever, which is interesting cuz that's a thing. Like I didn't know that was a thing. If you did and it it drag you down the path of like learning about like tattoo history or whatever. Yeah. It's not a bad thing. I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. To be you're doing it to for a selfish reason. I think it's like if you think it's the quick path to getting rich and famous or some [ __ ] the [ __ ] road. You think it's a good way to make money too? I'm like you're [ __ ] wrong, brother. This is not a [ __ ] thing to do, dude. It ain't no joke right now. And like I've just watching some of the most successful, some of the most talented tattooers I've ever seen in my whole entire career struggle.

And I hate that. But we are all going to like if we're driven and we're in love with this [ __ ] till the [ __ ] end, it'll happen, dude. Like we're going to figure it out. Yeah. It'll be all right. You talk to those older heads. Yeah. And they've been through this plenty of times.

you've been tattooing for 40 plus years or like I've been through it time and time again where it's bad and then it's good and then it's bad and it's good. I always relate it to kind of like any old documentaries we watch about like skateboarding or whatever, you know, like skateboarding [ __ ] dipped, but I was still in love with it and I stuck with it and then these people like that's what carries it through. Yeah. It's it's it's like with comic books is like there was like a golden age of comic books, baseball cards, all these type when like comics were like a big [ __ ] thing and it was like booming. There's a comic book shop on every corner in physical, you know, brick and mortar and all of a sudden they just disappeared, dude. And then it and it [ __ ] dipped and it became the [ __ ] silver age where it had was declining in popular.

I think I think we're in the silver age now. Yeah. where it is really just like it's declining and it's it's not as it's not what it used to be. I shouldn't say it's not as I think tattooing is more popular now than it ever has been. Thousand%. Yeah. But there's also a lot more people doing it. Exactly.

And so it's just changed. But comics are still really [ __ ] popular. Like like I don't know. I just am comparing it to that. I mean Hollywood makes it [ __ ] extremely I'm I'm like it just is shifting. It's it's like your ability to make money as an artist is always going to be I think centered around your ability to pivot. Yeah. And so if you're if you're able to pivot, you're able to stay alive.

I think that's always going to be the case for artists. It's never going to be an easy route unless you're extremely lucky and you're in the right place, right time, and you're super talented. You know, one of my favorite thing, well, like one of my personal like draws to you was that you're you had this unique style and we we and right now I'm just I'm I'm still to this day always such a [ __ ] nerd about somebody that's stuck with their guns and like always focused on their own [ __ ] you know? Like we talk about Adam Hawthorne and [ __ ] um Dave Tevinol and you know Adam Turk like all these well I shouldn't he doesn't he doesn't like when you call him Adam but if we're going to call him Turk but uh I don't just these people that those are people that I personally like grew up around Jimmy Litwalk and all these different artists that had these unique beautiful styles that they [ __ ] stuck to dude and they relentlessly pushed it out there.

I think right now all those people are the ones that are surviving, dude. And like all if we didn't like which is I know I think we talked about this earlier too like how difficult it is cuz like my mentors taught us how we needed to try to be like a specialist in every genre. Yeah. And that's a was a very difficult task to be like good at black and gray and good at American traditional. Like there's only a few people that I can even think of that have like seemed to not master but like been able to acquire the skill set in multiple genres like that. Yeah. I I think it's I think niching yourself out is always a good thing. Yeah.

I think I think with it being so I say so but like but just with it being as popular I've always been like I'm never going to be the [ __ ] best tattoo. I'm not I'm not going to be a Gregron. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I'm not going to be any of the people who are like super good at Japanese traditional or any of that. I I I just don't think I have that knack in me to to like master the craft. I think I can I think I can do a good tattoo. You know what I mean?

Like I I want to be able to do a good tattoo, connect with people. And then my interest has always been in just like like making being stylistic like just being having style in any sort of way. And then there we go. Dude, how many like great or is there anybody you can think I mean I'm sure you can but like uh what like what are some major influences as far as illustrators? I don't mean to put you on the spot. Illustrators or tattooers? I'd say illustrators in general cuz I think we should draw. Alex Party.

Alex Party. Really? Okay, cool. That's awesome. No [ __ ] I was here in Vegas a long time ago. [ __ ] love the dude. No [ __ ] Yeah. Such a nice dude.

Such a talented artist. But without him, I don't know if I would be pursuing art. No [ __ ] I met him at like a North Las Vegas like random graffiti group meetup. Yeah. And he was there with a bunch of like European graffiti artists and [ __ ] And I was nerding out. Bro, I still have like little Alex Party um little magazines that he signed for me like in my attic, dude. Like I haven't Dude, I have an email that I sent to him whenever I was 15 or 16. Yeah.

I sent him an email to his blog. Okay. That that he had at the time. And I was like, "Hello, Mr. " That's so tight. What ink do you use? Um and it was and he replied to me. Okay.

and and was so kind and like cool about it and he and he answered my questions and [ __ ] and that meant so much to me as a kid. So Inc. is he tattooed or No, no. Oh, okay. Yeah. Ink in his paintings. " Okay. I asked him like a really annoying question, but he responded and was kind and was and was helpful and that was so cool to me and it showed me like what a good role model could be as an artist.

Oh, that's [ __ ] awesome. It was so sick. And and he just I I don't know. I just I always was just drawn to his [ __ ] And then it I still have some limited prints of his that are framed in my like art space, you know. He's so cool. He's so cool, dude. Like I'll always give him flowers. And then you know the the [ __ ] like the greats like Mobius and Fetta and [ __ ] like those those were huge inspirations.

Victor Castillo and all those those are like the the art side of [ __ ] I pull from Buff Monster side of [ __ ] too and I don't know it was it was stuff like that. Yeah. Cuz you were a graffiti kid growing up too, right? Yeah, I was. Yeah. Uh was never good, but would still try my damnest. Yeah. But I [ __ ] been chased off the side of the freeway.

Yeah. 100% trying to do good [ __ ] Yeah. Was that was why I was going to jail. Yeah. But but but for sure I I honestly think like pulling from outside of tattooing helped me a bunch. Yeah. No, I thousand% cuz it it you know help you find your own unique path within tattooing. Yeah.

It was it was knowing how to make a good tattoo and then pulling from outside of tattooing inspiration cuz tattooing can get very like incestuous. Yeah. On like we start to repeat. We're just doing the same old thing over and over again. And that was the main drive of like My style was like I just want to do [ __ ] that I don't think I've ever seen anyone do before. Any tattooers though that like pop into mind though that you're just Betterman. Uh I don't know if you know of uh I know the name. A wonky tiger was his in is his Instagram name.

He was such a [ __ ] huge inspiration. He he did my arm. Okay. Always like some like weird spaceship. He's like a comic guy. Uh just incredible tattooer. [ __ ] uh where is he based out of? Austin.

Oh, okay. And Tavanol. Yeah. Honky Kong. I love Dave. He's going to be out here for I think he's going to be out for that convention again in November. And I'm I think he's going to be able to come by here. You should He has to.

He loves me. I know you do, Dave. Get your ass out here, bro. Yeah, Dave. Yeah. Yeah. He's a sweetheart. I love him so much.

and so many [ __ ] Oh, I have to [ __ ] give Michelle Wanhala a huge shout out. Uh to me, she was the first person doing what I think my style is derivative of. Okay. She was doing that like weirdo [ __ ] the illustrator weirdo [ __ ] before me. She was the first person I recognized. Yeah. And was like, "Oh, dude, she's killing it. She's so cool.

She's a complete weirdo. Love her to death. But I love that she's her and she's like remained her the whole time. I don't know. Big inspiration. Michelle Wala. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, dude.

There's just like so many great people that have brought us into this and it's fun to like I don't know at this moment like think back and be like dude I [ __ ] gave it to me, man. I I love like Adam Hawthorne like dude he's one of the [ __ ] to me like one of the most influential tattooers in my life like in your sphere. Yeah. In my personal sphere. Yeah. Yeah. Like um dude Dave Tavana too as far as a pusher and a [ __ ] that just like does not give up like Well, yeah. And it gives and gives and gives to it to tattooing, you know, and and everything.

He's just he's just so [ __ ] like talented. It's like annoying how how good he is and stuff. And it I don't know. He was the first person I was like like had style and was like immaculate at I was like that's great. Which is a big deal too cuz a lot of us like I think I've seen a lot of like beautiful illustrators like jump into tattooing and not be able to like adapt to I don't want to say the world of tattooing, but like applying a tattoo is a whole different ballgame. and getting something that sticks and feels right and like looks good over time. Yeah. I've watched a lot of like really talented tattoo or illustrators like try and for whatever reason didn't have like that.

Yeah. To like figure out how to adapt or whatever. that that was always been my thing. Like uh even in my like art career outside of tattooing, um I've always my motto's always been like I everything that I do needs to be able to like I I draw it like I could tattoo it. Yeah. And that's like a that's been like a big [ __ ] thing. Was that a mentor or anything at any point in time that like hammered that into your head or just like But I think it's just the foundation of my art Yeah. was tattooing.

So, like I'm like, well, I I want to be a This is just how I know it. And I I like that and I almost don't want to learn out of it. Oh, yeah. For like the the, you know, memories of it, I guess. So, I'm like I want to be able to [ __ ] make a big painting that I could tattoo on someone's leg if I wanted to. You know what I mean? And that's like a It's cool that way. And I use the same color palettes that I use.

Yeah. In painting that I do with [ __ ] tattooing and stuff. Do you like tattooing on in a smaller scale, like a start to finish project or do you aspire or do much like large scale stuff? I definitely want to do more large scale stuff. Like like I said, like tattooing flash can get really boring. Yeah. And I think I'm at this point now where I'm like I would like to do like bigger pieces. I've started some back.

Yeah. saw like a handful of stuff on your and just and have never really quite seen them through or started some sleeves and whatever. And it's it's it's cool. I just want to get better at it. I I I always this is the cool thing about any like craft is you you're just never going to be like perfect at it and I want to just keep getting better. Do you have a vision for your stuff on larger scale? I mean, I I saw that back piece. I only saw one back piece that you did on your social media and it made sense, but I I want to see your stuff like in sleeves and stuff like Yeah.

I I don't know how it would look like flowwise, you know? I'm such like an advocate for flow. And um Exactly. That's that's the thing. That's the thing I struggle with cuz I can get it to flow on like a singular piece. Yeah. thing. It's like on a back piece you can blow it up and it's still pieces I think are easy cuz it's just like a black.

But a sleeve is a whole different ball game. You got to get the wrap. It's got to fit muscles. It's got to like do this whole thing. And I I haven't quite nailed that down. But I the only way to do it is just do it. Do it. You got to get better at it.

Make people happy that way. I want to though. Yeah. So, okay. Hit me up, brothers. I like it. Yeah. What else?

like where do you see yourself like in the future of tattooing? I don't know. Do you have like any unique aspirations for yourself or like goals and [ __ ] like that that you want to like kind of jump into, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I I think I just want to keep pushing it. I've never had like [ __ ] I've never been that guy to be like, I know exactly where you want to go, where I want to go. I'm just kind of like riding it and then it's it's all by the seat of my pants.

I'm just [ __ ] I if I like it, I'm doing that. But I don't know. Just get bigger and better, get more intricate, and get quicker. Quicker is a big thing. I think you did great tonight. Like, dude, we banged out my side of my knee like pretty [ __ ] fast. I always feel like I tattoo so [ __ ] slow. Yeah.

I don't I don't think so. I think you did fantastic tonight. Like, cuz I'm [ __ ] like, dude, some I was surprised also how bad the side of my knee like didn't bother me at all. Thank god. I was more irritated at my shoulder like just on that [ __ ] skinny ass table. Dude, I think the trick is [ __ ] keeping up conversation, dude. That's such a I think so, too. It's such a good distractor, dude.

If you can talk the whole time, people will forget about how painful it is. " Yeah. Or I Or Yeah. Or I just want to kind of get in my own zone as a client tonight, you know, like just zone out and like not talk. But I totally get it. I was excited to talk to to you and just I don't know. I mean, we were in a great shop tonight. We you did a guest bought at Buddy's shop, Downtown Tattoo in Las Vegas.

And Buddy has a fantastic environment. His shop is beautiful, dude. If you haven't checked it out, it's [ __ ] stellar, dude. It's so good. It's so [ __ ] like it's crushed in flash everywhere. I think we talked about this a little bit. This is really [ __ ] weird, but I've been tattooing for like 25 years and I've never done a guest spot. I've started That's crazy to me.

Yeah. I opened up my shop like 3 years into tattooing and I was like, I can't [ __ ] leave cuz I borrowed a [ __ ] ton of money and I built out a crazy shop and I just could I was so busy I couldn't [ __ ] leave other than doing conventions. I did black out and do like two conventions a month for like years. Uh but like how's your experience and like what do you do you enjoy the the guest spot? Yeah. Yeah. You're thrown in this random environment where back in the day like it could be kind of intimidating. Obviously, you're around a random stranger.

Yeah. So, like personality, dude. I walk in there like my [ __ ] dick's huge and I don't give a [ __ ] dude. I mean, I don't I just don't like letting I'm going in there with zero ego. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just hunter. Like, I'm just hanging out.

We're we're we're here to we'll shoot [ __ ] I'll [ __ ] drink with y'all. I'll [ __ ] do walk-ins if you need me to do walk-ins. Like, whatever you want. I'm here to [ __ ] tattoo and make some money. I think that's a really important thing, you know. That really is. Well, and it pays respect to your environment that you're in, too. You know, you're you're you're not coming in like I'm here to do me and not you.

" Like, from a shop owners perspect, it's like a weird biker shop thing that I like growing up in biker shops. It was like um you you just it's all about respect. It's like if you don't have the respect for your [ __ ] the dudes, then you then they're not gonna have you. Yeah. So then that taught me like, oh, anytime I go to a different shop, it's all about like make yourself as little as possible possible and then just [ __ ] vibe. Yeah. [ __ ] stay humble. Say goodbye to people.

Pay your respects to the people that are doing their [ __ ] in their regular day-to-day life. Like they're there and you're you're in their space, you know? So I'm I'm [ __ ] up their vibes. up their flow cuz I'm like where's the where's the saran wrap you know like uh and that's should I have brought my own saran wrap you know like am I on your [ __ ] right now cartridges you know and it's like you just have to be cool just be a good hang being a good hang has gotten me so far in everything that I that's my biggest that's the one thing I'm confident in I'm confident in nothing else We had a fantastic time tonight, dude. And like I mean, Buddy Shop is such a like good vibe. I [ __ ] love like this is what I love about tattooing, you know? Like my right now I'm in this like little grind where I'm like I just want to get little jams from like all these different tattooers and a lot of my local tattooers that I just I've been headown grinding for so long.

I haven't got out and got tattooed by Buddy. I haven't got out and tattooed by all the fantastic tattooers in his shop or any other shops in my own city. Like I think that's something that we should do and pay respect to our locals like you know and and it kind of like clears up the [ __ ] air you know like you may have heard about me for a long time and I've heard about you and we may have built like weird little [ __ ] stories about each other. That is the weird thing about tattooing. If I come in and and I just want to be a part of your environment and get a little tattoo, like let's [ __ ] do this, dude. Let's bond. It's showing your belly a lot. Yeah.

Like, and I think showing your belly is a good thing where you're like, it takes all the cool guy out of everything. We all got a little space open, you know? Get out there and share it, dude. It's fun. Whatever it is, dude. Even showing face in a shop. A thousand%. " Or like whatever.

I stopped by the shop. I Hey, I brought everyone [ __ ] donuts or whatever. Like that sort of thing goes so far cuz you're just I don't know. Just building [ __ ] relationships. Community, man. Community is so incredibly important. And I like I do feel like there was a handful of people back in the day that would like throw some [ __ ] but I personally remember Buddy showing up at my shop in like 2004 participating in my art shows and stuff at our shop. Like when he was like just starting out like I didn't know that he would he had tattooed less than me.

I always thought he tattooed around the same. It doesn't [ __ ] matter, you know? Like I have the most same amount of respect. But uh it it's just I remember him being there for me. So, it was like really cool to like just kind of be in his shop and like lately and just literally just sit down too also with like all egos aside and just pay my respects like dude's been doing it like doing it for a long [ __ ] time in our city and I and he does such a great job and I [ __ ] love walking in his shop and it's so beautiful, dude. I laid there on my back today getting tattooed by you and I was like there's not a square inch of this shot that's not crushing flash or art. So good, dude. So good.

And all original, correct? If like I believe so. I believe I'm like 99% sure like everything shop is always painting. Always. They're not not doing I love it, dude. Today was like I wanted to I told him, you know, I was like, "Dude, this is like this is this is what tattooing is about. Like your shop is rad, dude. " I mean, I don't know.

I I'm fairly new to knowing a Buddy. Uh, I got introduced to him by my buddy Peter Hawks and Oh, okay. Yeah. Peter's from Reno and lived in Vegas for a while and he was uh Eddie Deutsche's apprentice. No [ __ ] Um, and just like [ __ ] I was like, I'm going to Vegas. My buddies are going to Vegas. I'm going to [ __ ] I'm going to go out there. Do you know like can I tattoo the shop that you tattoo at when you come out here?

And he's like, yeah, dude. asked Buddy and he was I asked Buddy and he was like hell yeah dude any friend of Peter's you know friend of mine and [ __ ] and that immediately like took all the walls down and I'm like oh this is cool let's [ __ ] go and it's just been a pleasant experience dude like that's cool just such a cool shop I would much rather work at a street shop than a than a [ __ ] private studio most of the time and and and this is the to me the like cream of the crop Yeah street shop type [ __ ] Yeah, it's good vibes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that [ __ ] I was telling you about this earlier. Yeah. Let's talk about that, dude. Like where you were at.

You were a part of a a shop before. Yes. And then you I know some like the rent or like things sh Yeah. The the [ __ ] rent got crazy high and they LA they were raising the rent on the shop and it got shut down just cuz it was impossible to pay. Yeah. And um yeah, once that was shutting down, I I jumped ship and opened up my own studio. It's private studio. And that was a that was a it's been a journey.

Yeah. because it's [ __ ] like okay because when you say it's been a journey like were you expecting anything beyond just kind of the comm camaraderie of you working with like a handful of your homies or were you expecting it to or focus on being building it as a business or was it like a I was kind of spot so for the first like 6 months of it it was very easygoing and I could have paid it on my own even without the help And it was like it was chill and I was like, "Got this in the bag. " Yeah. And then it came a point where I think LA was just going through so many hard times. It it it ended up becoming a a hassle and a headache and like just a huge amount of stress. Um and that's between like the artists that were there, it was retaining artists.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is [ __ ] thing. It's crazy. " Yeah. Yeah. At a private studio. Okay.

Okay. " You know, like come come ditch the reliability of the shop that you're at now and work for me. And that's not easy or or feasible for most people to jump over from say a commission shop to like rental. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And and without the like pull cuz this shop is new. Yeah.

Like I don't have any experience of opening up a shop. So I was like this is all very new to me and whatever. And there's just no I'm just so new to it. I think I just have to I had to I I need more time to like work it up and and understand how to do it. But just on top of that, it's just tough. The tattooing I think changed. I think the private studio the allure and the value has almost kind of like it's shifted a little bit. Yeah.

I I think it's just it's become less feasible unless that is your bread and butter and you're like really good at that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Whereas like a walk-in shop in a good area that has notoriety is reliable. I know. Yeah. So, like my shop's still commission based, you know, it seems so old school, but uh you know, we work our butts off and trying to get people to come in. And I take I don't take that lightly, you know, like I love the idea that I can still help tattooers get seats in their, you know, butts in their seats, you know.

Yeah. Um but it is harder than it's ever been in my whole entire career, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And because 20 plus years Yeah. because the shift of uh private studios and everybody just kind of like and and Instagram coming along and uh uh tattooers taking their marketing into their own hands, which back in the day that's like what we did as shop owners is take on the responsibility and the, you know, the idea that we were going to try to help. And then all of a sudden like all my tattooers could go off and do their own thing, you know, which was, you know, so it's it's just interesting because it's it's it's difficult on both sides, you know, and but I mean bottom line, like it's just hard as [ __ ] to get people in your chair, like even if you're a fantastic tattooer and you have a huge following online, like I love unless you're a [ __ ] marketing genius, it's still a grind.

It's a grind, you know, and we're all kind of I think being humbled and Yeah, dude. But we all we'll all pivot. It's it is the name of the game. Like we like we got a little comfortable with how it goes and then you know it shifts on you and then you learn how to [ __ ] make it work another way. And yeah I and I you know we talked about that a lot tonight and I honestly I think it's a good thing. Like I like being challenged dude. I like being I don't like the stress. I don't but I'm I'm grateful for it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. cuz like if you're just chilling and just like things are working. Yeah. Like we get comfortable and the world passes us by. Yeah.

Yeah. 100%. I think um I think if you can withstand then you will be a stronger artist, tattooer, yada yada. And that'll be that's good for you. Yeah. And I think it it it and it's all about just [ __ ] like leaning on your buddies and your fellow tattooers and your dieh hard clients and [ __ ] to just carry yourself through it and hopefully it'll it'll be all right. You'll be okay, dude. Yeah.

We can't sit around and cry about it, man. We just got to figure it out. Be creatives. We're creatives. Yeah. So, let's [ __ ] figure it out, dude. Pick up a second job every once in a while. Yeah.

Whatever, man. Who cares? I'm all about side hustles, dude. Dude, side hustles all the way. All day. You just got to I think we should all have side hustles. It's important to diversify a little bit, but like no one's [ __ ] No one's paying that close attention to you, dude. Go do what you got to do.

Yeah. Push yourself. Make cool art. [ __ ] stay in there as long as you don't give up. It's It's the old skating thing where it's like you didn't you didn't stop skating because you got old, you got old cuz you stopped skating type [ __ ] It's the same thing with tattooing is you see those old [ __ ] my my buddy Jack Watts does a he has a podcast where he he like interviews all these like old head tattooers from uh Europe. Uh and he he tattooed this guy. I'm sorry if I'm mixing up his name, but it's something like George Bones or something. Old English tattooer.

Uh sounds cool. I cannot I don't think that's his right name. But anyway, he he did I was listening to his podcast and he was talking about uh he was like interviewing this old guy from like the [ __ ] before the 80s tattooer. Oh wow. He's just still kicking, still tattooing. And he's like Jack could ask if he [ __ ] stopped if he's ever planning on retiring. He's like why does everyone [ __ ] ask me if I'm going to retire? The only time you'll know if I retire is if some [ __ ] gets a half a tattoo.

And I'm like, that's so sick, dude. That is so [ __ ] cool. You just [ __ ] Dude, just do it. Just keep doing it. Find the inspiration. Find the passion for it and just keep trucking. Yeah, that's all that matters. It's fun, man.

If you're chasing [ __ ] stardom or success or any of that, then you're in the wrong business. Just keep making [ __ ] The people that will will appreciate it will appreciate you. Yeah. And that's all you can worry about. It's the best. Yeah. Yeah. It's [ __ ] cool.

" Yeah. Yeah. Remember this [ __ ] person. They're [ __ ] They were doing weird [ __ ] Can't believe no one heard of this person. in the history of art that's happened a you know that's what I'm saying tattoo history is not very well documented fellas so if you [ __ ] you know pay attention to your local tattooers and your local legends because they might you know not get heard of after this and you should keep tabs on it so that's my PSA yeah dude I [ __ ] love it man I just I don't know man I think I think that's a great [ __ ] ending point you know what I mean like I feel like we could hang out tonight and continue to drink and um let's [ __ ] go. Yeah. I just I don't know. I'm incredibly grateful for meeting unique humans and in tattooing especially like tonight was really [ __ ] awesome, dude.

Great time. It was great for me, too. I I was I was extremely excited to to do this and [ __ ] hang out with you and it's been a blast. It's fun and you know it's scary for us all. Like we're all just trying to like learn and new do new [ __ ] and like this is all still new to me and it's just fun as [ __ ] to like try to put this together and put it out there and hopefully some people appreciate it and um I don't know. I just like I am I'm incredibly flattered that you would take the time to like hang out and you've been somebody that I've followed over the years and always admired your your tenacity and your illustration style and you know and Stop it. It's cool, man. And tonight we [ __ ] bonded, bro.

Like I think we're long siblings. Yeah. The fact that we're from like basically the same [ __ ] neighborhood and all this weird [ __ ] and like I don't know. I'm just like it's just cool and uh you know I just am grateful for what this like weird culture and industry has always brought to me. I'm grateful that you're stoked about it. Yeah, that makes me happy. Being one that's stoked about it makes me stoked. So I don't I don't care.

I I feel like there's a like there's kind of a lack of just reach out and tell someone you you like their [ __ ] these days, you know? Like I really feel like we should be doing that more than ever because it is we're dealing with a like a humbling time, you know, where we no matter how big our following or whatever. " You know, I'm not getting any love like I was used to. We were spoiled for a while. [ __ ] it. Like whatever. Like right now is let it be like the time that we should just be like, "Dude, I just want to let you know like I slide into the DMs all the time. " And people are more responsive than ever right now.

And it's fantastic. I mean, I do I I think people are more responsive no matter what. Dude, the only the only way I've ever gotten to network the way I'veorked is by reaching out. Yeah. And I've gotten rejected plenty of times. And you can't take it personal. Just it is what it is. And you [ __ ] move on.

And dude, I've got people that slid into my DMs and been like, "Yo, you wrote me like a year ago. " It is what it is. And I'm not I'm like I'm not tripping, bro. Like we all have a bunch of [ __ ] going on. You I'm a terrible replier. I'm so bad at it. I will [ __ ] leave people on red. I But it's not anything personal.

I just am like ADHD and [ __ ] to message people back and whatever. And yeah, just don't take that's a lesson to not take anything personal. Yeah, we dude. We can't take anything personal. Like it's just it is what it is. like I got some grumpy old butthole tattooers telling me I'm a turd and I'm like I promise you I'm not man and then all of a sudden they're your best buds like 5 years later or whatever and I'm just not trying to wait around and be sour about [ __ ] Just like just [ __ ] wake up and have a good day, dude. Yeah, keep moving fell. And if you don't [ __ ] you.

I don't know. No, I Yeah, agreed. Yeah, dude. Life's life's [ __ ] good, man. We should be just incredibly [ __ ] happy with the fact that we're able to like make a living making art. Yeah, we're we're extremely lucky. So thankful for that, dude. I get to wake up every day and create in nine different ways and somehow make a living like 100%.

Yeah. I don't need [ __ ] other than like some fresh, clean drinking water and some whiskey or like wine and I'm good to go, dude. There we go. A new t-shirt every once in a while makes me feel fresh as [ __ ] I just need to [ __ ] have a place to live. Yeah, as long as I can pay rent. Yeah, let's go. As long as I can pay rent and McDonald's every once in a while, I'm good. You You don't [ __ ] with In-N-Out Burger or what?

Like I like In-N-Out. That's fine. They don't do They don't do GrubHub, so I I don't [ __ ] order them. Yeah, I'm I'm a [ __ ] for GrubHub. That's awesome. Shout out to GrubHub. But I I don't know. Yeah.

I I think right now has been a nice humbling experience to be like uh you need less than you think you do. Yeah. And uh with how crazy everything is, you just got to [ __ ] ride it out, dude. Reach out to your [ __ ] neighbors. Talk to your people. Be nice to people. Don't show hate. Yeah.

Uh and and take care of each other. I mean I mean that's the most like [ __ ] whitewashy like keep [ __ ] working man on your vision like keep [ __ ] drawing like keep making art like whatever your form of artwork is like just [ __ ] execute dude% daily like it's hard but just keep doing it and hopefully someone will see it and hopefully someone will bite. Yeah. Just be grateful for what you got. Be grateful for the for the clients you got and [ __ ] I don't know. That's such a That's such a big deal because it's a hard thing to do because your ego gets in the way of every single thing that you do. Yeah. Letting your ego go is a [ __ ] big ass deal like in every relationship in your whole entire life.

You'll never do it 100%. It's it's got it's there for and I don't think it should be squashed cuz we need our egos to drive us to like at some point. I know what egoless art looks like, but like but you know, just [ __ ] just just be just be chill. Yeah, we're [ __ ] up. We had a good night tonight. We partied tonight. I just This is really fun though. And uh yeah, thank you again.

Yeah, Mr. Crocodile Jackson, thanks for coming by, dude. We greatly appreciate you, my dude. Thanks, man. Uh, incredibly looking forward to hopefully working with you on some fun projects in the future. So, dude, for sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, man.

Do you didn't tag, you didn't respond, but I was in Mexico City. I was in the pit, the snake pit in in uh Metallica show, and I was wearing your shirt and I sent it to you. The yellow one with the the skull and what did it say? It says, "Life's too hard. Don't try or life's short. " Yeah, I was [ __ ] with [ __ ] dude. I went there [ __ ] backstage. I went like I got Dude, I got to have dinner with James Headfield.

It was [ __ ] epic, bro. " Yeah. Yeah. I'll show it to you tonight. Yeah. And I was like, I happened to be wearing your shirt there, the yellow one, and it everybody was in yellow and black cuz you know that was like the tour colors for the last tour. Yeah. [ __ ] me, dude.

Yeah, dude. It was [ __ ] awesome. It don't mean [ __ ] man. That's awesome, man. But I was thinking about you and I [ __ ] like I love that shirt. And that's so [ __ ] sweet, man. I'm always I'm always so stoked cuz I'm like I'm just such a bad communicator whenever people are like I don't know. Whenever that happens, I'm just like [ __ ] I don't know.

I was probably It probably didn't look like [ __ ] even if you saw the picture. Well, I don't know. I probably saw it. I'm [ __ ] here, bro. This is the best day of my life. and I'm wearing your shirt. I don't know, dude. I think about it all the time.

Like someone will send me like a really sentimental message and I'm like, "Dude, you probably sent that to me while I was like jacking off or something and I'm like I can't [ __ ] Well, I'm going to respond to you postnut. That's not cool. Like that's a [ __ ] real right there. I'm going to embarrass the [ __ ] out of you. Good, good, good, good, good, good, good. Yeah. So, yeah. No, cool.

Once again, thank you guys so much for tuning in. I appreciate you. Um, this was a great experience. Uh if if you [ __ ] need anything, slide in the DMs, my dudes. Yeah, right, my dude. Hey, dude. Squeaky wheel gets the oil or whatever the [ __ ] that saying is. Yep.

So, where do we find you? Like what you what do we you go to your website? Uh crocodile Jackson on Instagram. com on in on the internet and then uh FlashFriends Instagram. Our next interview, we're going to get the Crocodile Jackson story. We forgot to get that tonight, but yes. And if you use Crocodile Jackson uh on your order of Maverick Tattoo Supply, you'll get 100% discount. Don't listen to this [ __ ] Peace.

Thank you guys.

This is an American story and my goal was to have a book that when you read it, you heard Eddie's voice. People said that's the best presentation we've ever had. Tattooing is a leisure activity that changes social norms. And at that point, leisure can change society. Kids love Eddie. Yeah. Yeah. I have pictures of all three of my daughters.

Two of them it was the first time they ever smiled, like when they were infants. He just knew people. He knew how to make people smile. And it didn't matter what age it was. Yeah. Something special. " Cuz here I'm a guy with very little education and with elbow grease and a tattoo machine, I was able to support my family, buy property and make a living with a little education and a tattoo machine. [Music] What's happening?

This is Austin from Sport Local Tattoer. Today is a very special day. I got two two of my hands down favorite characters, dudes. I got Phil Luck in the house. What's up, y'all? We got Dr. Eric Fmeimmel in the house. Hello.

Yes. The doctor in the house. Yeah. The author of uh The Life and Times of Crazy Philadelphia. Eddie, he wrote Are You You wrote I only have four on the table for some reason. There's seven. Seven. Yeah.

So, I got to find my three others. The seventh came out And then two weeks later, Eddie passed. Oh, no way. Yeah. Yeah. And and we worked really hard. Okay. So, this he was going to stop at number six and then the National Oral History Association invited us to come and present at um their at their uh symposium.

What were they thinking? Yeah. " And I saved those emails because, you know, I mean, that was my goal was to be acknowledged by the Oral History Association because this is an American story. And my goal was to have a book that when you read it, you heard Eddie's voice. So when we went to that convention, Eddie realized he had to lace up his boots and do number seven. Got to finish the story. So we worked really hard to get that seventh book out. And then uh he went to a convention.

Not a lot of people were interested. that kind of broke his heart and the wind was gone out of his cells. After that, you know, he uh, you know, just kind of packed it in, you know. So, what was the plan originally? How many books was it supposed to be when you guys first started discussing it? Five. Five. Yeah.

He wanted to get a decade per book. Okay. And then, um, when we did the first book, we put it out at Mario Bart's biggest tattoo show. That was in 2010. The day he had that up for sale on the table, I was already working on book two and he was telling uh the photographer Michelle, book three is going to be in the works. I'm going to give the tapes to Eric. I mean, oh [ __ ] One was for sale, two was at the printers, three was on my desk. I mean, he we were working, right?

And then he slowed down a little bit, and then it was a book pretty much per year. So, yeah. I mean, he was working hard. Yeah. So, we I I think we kind of wanted to uh go a little into you actually, like your kind of intro to tattooing in general. Phil was telling me some great stories. Yeah. Yeah.

That was in Sacramento, California on Capitol and 19th Street. American Graffiti. It was um first of it was a beautiful house. It was not a storefront. It was a beautiful home. Right. Was that That's the one they moved into. Oh, okay.

This is before that. This was kind of like a basement bottom dwelling area and and those guys just it was it was uh blood, sweat, and tears. Was Eric Hogan at the helm at this point? Yeah. Yeah. And Scott was too. Scott Sylvia. And there was a gentleman Nate, but I can't remember his last name.

I don't know how to pronounce it. Starts with a B. Yeah. And is that how you pronounce Benuelos? That's you know I was 21. So that's like 30 something years ago. But like they and they uh they built the cabinets out. They built their own um uh countertops and and I remember him saying like we don't know what's going to happen.

We open the store. We don't know if like the old-timers are going to come and give us a hard time. How did you find the place? Uh the coffee shop I hung out at was around the corner. Okay. From their place, American Graffiti. And that was right that was before they moved into the the house. And I I got a tattoo from Eric Hogan there.

That was my first tattoo. And after that, I was hooked. Right. And all my friends were getting tattoos. And the back piece was how long in I jumped in. I jumped in pretty quick. I mean, like I put my foot in the shallow end, just walked right around to the deep end and dove right in, you know? Yeah, you did.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a serious back piece. Oh [ __ ] man. Yeah. Were you drawn to tattooing a real early age or exposed to it or anything or? Uh, we weren't really exposed to it as a kid. I mean, any family members?

No [ __ ] No. Yeah. Because I mean in the 80s I mean even if you if you had arm tattoos you couldn't get a job, right? I mean like and you know I had friends getting tattoos in high school and I'm like what are you crazy? I mean they were literally decal sized on their arms when was a dragon you know and you're like when was like you know skates skater stickers and stuff and I'm like man you guys aren't going to be able to get a job. What are you doing? You're like you're born to earn minimum wage from this you know those are visible tattoos. So, none of my tattoos are visible to this day.

It's ingrained in me. But, uh, you know, all of our friends started getting tattoos right about that time. In the '9s, there was that big explosion. And, uh, we would go to tattoo conventions. And I went to Japan Town in uh, San Francisco. Yeah. And bought a book that was published by uh, three people. Ed Rubin, I'm sorry, no, Ed Hardy, last guy named Rubin and Al All Alan Governor, and they put together this symposium and invited academics to write about tattooing.

And they were getting away from that academic view that tattooing was for socially deviant people. Yeah. And that um they wanted to look at it as an art form. and that whole tattoo renaissance that was happening, I gravitated towards that book and it had uh a back piece on it by uh Leo Zuda and that Oh, was this what was the book? Was it Modern Primitive? No, it was um Marks of Civilization. Okay. Okay.

That's that's a big book, right? And so when I wrote my dissertation, those were all my sources for my literature review. That's so cool. you know, so a book I bought when I was in my 20s, you know, you know, I had to dig it out of my parents house, you know, because it was under a bunch of crap. My god, this was all the source work I needed. And so, uh, at that point, I was attracted to the imagery and then there was that intellectual side that kind of triggered me as well. And so, I was just kind of drawn to it. And then, you know, those endorphins that you get when you start getting tattooed, it's like, you know, so yeah, I just fell in love with the art form.

That's so great. Yeah. Yeah. So then um you know at that time I was working in trying to get into the park service. I wanted to be a park ranger. Oh yeah. I remember you telling me about this a long time ago. A long time ago, right?

Never never follow your dreams. " Yeah. You know what you going to do, right? With your studies. I didn't even know that was a thing. I might have gone anymore anymore. It's it's fading out. So, um, but if you're going to have a title in life, Dr.

Pretty awesome, man. Amazing. " And then I started to think about it. There's a there's a culture Yeah. that you can write about. And then that's when I started working on the idea of, okay, well, maybe this is what I'll write about. And uh that that pushed me looking in that direction and I started looking at an avenue to to explore this topic and I was going to Penn State and State College and that's when I met Timmy Tats and lowercase J and I wrote a little piece on their shop and then they introduced me to Crazy Philadelphia Eddie and that was how that started to So that was that was the connection. Solid dudes.

The best. You said you wrote that piece for something or other than Yeah. Yeah. You know, which got rejected. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Where were you submitting that work to? An academic journal. Oh, go. Yeah. They weren't. So, you weren't you weren't just like spitting this out for like tattoo magazines. They shot me down. Okay.

Really? Oh, man. I was No one had my six on that one. " Holy [ __ ] I mean, yeah, they really they nailed me on it. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And um when I defended my dissertation on tattooing, there was shouting in the room for two like for 15 minutes before I entered the room. There was shouting and then um then I went in to defend it. It was a two-hour defense. That defense is supposed to take 10 minutes. Man, I got nailed to the wall. that. Yeah. There was one professor that was not too excited about Well, I don't think he thought that.

What year is this? What year is this? Uh 200 five. Okay. Oh, wow. Yeah. He didn't He didn't really see the the merit, the academic merit in studying tattooing. And he had me take key pieces out of the dissertation that were totally important.

Yeah. Saying I didn't understand the theories. Theories aren't that hard. I mean, if I can understand it. Yeah. And then another professor did his research and said, "No, Eric understood the theories. " So I never got the apology, but anyways, yeah, they nailed me to the wall. They did not like a dissertation written about tattooing.

But yeah. Wow, that's wild. Yeah. And so I had called Alan Governor who was the guy that was part of that symposium for Marxist civilization and he put the anthropologist Victor Turner in my head and said look at this look this way. Victor Turner is pretty interesting with you know um the dynamics in in culture and there was the theory of um social drama. And when I did my research, the the theory that I grounded the research on was social drama. And in a social drama, the first thing that you have is a subculture that likes to do something. And they do it just because they like to do it.

It gives them meaning. They enjoy the activity. It's part of their subculture. The second phase is that the moral majority catches wind of this and they don't like this activity. They see it as subversive. So they try to the third stage is to stamp it out either with religion laws um making it a social taboo and then the fourth stage that happens is that activity gets pumped into the mainstream so it's no longer a social threat and I think that's what happened with tattooing. Yeah. So if you've got like when I grew up sports people didn't have tattoos.

Right. Right. And these are the the the lead. Dennis Rodman, that was it. Dennis Rodman was the turn, right? And and my dad as a kid said, "You will play basketball on a team sport. " So if you've got tattooed individuals that are the heroes of these games that we use to socialize kids, something has changed cuz the NBA when I was a kid didn't have any tattoos. No.

None. So you'd see a brand every once in a while. Every once in a while you'd see a brand, right? Yeah. And so I argued that tattooing is a leisure activity that changes social norms. And at that point, leisure can change society. And I guess you can see that in art, too, like you know, um, with segregation, that was a big thing. And then, you know, Frank Sinatra, Count Bassy started to knock that down with in in Las Vegas.

Yeah. with a non-segregated stage. Chuck Barry, rock and roll. That's an art form that knocked down segregation, you know. So, that was what I kind of argued with the dissertation. And uh yeah, they didn't like it. They didn't like it. And now look at it.

They didn't like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are you going to do? Yeah. [ __ ] it.

But dude, you did it. And that's so really good. Oh man, it ruffled some feathers. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. and I got my ass chewed out in that defense. " And I think that went really well yesterday.

I'm like, "What are you talking about? What defense were you at, man? " So, yeah. Damn. So, really? Yeah. So, you jumped in. You So, we'll go back maybe to where you met Eddie.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. And you really like connected like Oh yeah. Timmy Tats, he introduced you and J, what was the guy? Lowerase Jas Brothers. The Sellers Brothers. You might have I met Timmy multiple times.

Younger brother. Great tattoo. Great tattoo. He came out with the Philly show. Yeah, probably. Years ago. Yeah. So, um, uh, Tim Timmy talked to to Eddie and said, "These are some great stories.

I got a friend that writes. I'll introduce you to. So, I met I flew out to Philadelphia to help Timmy and the idea was like, okay, I'm a PhD guy. I can write grants. We can get some money. We can do some research. That was that was the angle we were going to throw. No one wanted to give us money.

But anyways, so he was doing this thing from the horse's mouth, interviewing old old school tattooers like Crazy Philadelphia, Eddie, Eddie Peace, and um Stan. Yeah. Barry Stan. Yeah. And um that's where I met Eddie and he took us to the Skin and Bones exhibit at the National Maritime Museum in um Philadelphia. And we walked through that exhibit and it was like walking through the NBA Hall of Fame with with Larry Bird. You know what I mean? Like like some of the stories he would tell me when we were walking.

This is the first time I met him. He says um you know sometimes when you're tattooing someone would come in with a design that you wanted but you didn't have Xerox machines then and no one had phones in their pockets or anything like that. So he said, you know, you're tattooing someone and um you're looking at that design, you really want it. So you say to him, "Hey, that's a nice design. " So you redo the lines. Okay. You put a napkin on it. You pull that off.

And then you've got the outline in blood. Brilliant. And that's how you make your stencil. Get the [ __ ] out with not acetate or whether you Okay, cool. Yeah. Cuz that's how brilliant. Yeah. Really?

Yeah. I just love the the hustle, the little sneaky. So, I mean, like, you've got this bloody napkin. Yeah. And you trace that out. Now, you've got a design on your wall. And I thought, man, this is this is a hell of a story. Yeah.

So, he and I drank some Bloody Marys. Had a great time drinking. And then um Timmy interviewed him. I didn't know he was much of a drinker. Yeah. Imagine that. Yeah. Yeah.

Philly. Phy like to drink a little. Two fists and Eddie. Two fisting. Right. And then um he doesn't remember that that day at all. I totally do because it was you know like wow I'm meeting crazy Philadelphia Eddie. Yeah.

And um and and as you know he makes you feel like you're the only person in the room. Yes. And that you've been friends for 20 years. He had that way about him as a person. Um you know the he had a kind heart for for kids and animals. I mean like like he was a a very genuine person. Love Eddie. Yeah.

Yeah. I have pictures of of my my all three of my daughters. Two of them it was the first time they ever smiled like when they were infants. Like he just he just he just knew people. He knew how to make people smile and it didn't matter what age it was. Yeah. Yeah. Something special.

Yeah. And and then so then couple months went by and I got a phone call from him saying, "Hey, could you come out? " And that was an experience in itself. Yeah. Making a book deal a book deal with Crazy Philadelphia Ed. People have told me I shouldn't tell this story. I love telling it. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so I was helping a friend with his dissertation, collecting the data in Florida. So, I I drove out over to Eddie's to pick up the tapes for the book, eight tapes. " And Shiffer Publishing published that one great book on um that was an oral history on um Sony Stony Knows How. Okay. I mean like this it was an Alan Governor book, right? Well, they had they they had I think was it originally by Schiffer? Yeah.

Shiffer Publishing. Okay. And Alan Governor was the the guy that wrote it and it's all Stony's voice. So I mean like it's an oral history. Yeah. Yeah. So I I I go out and I sit real quick. Was he did he do the documentary as well on Stony?

Yeah, he did. That was him. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, like that was that that's what I aspired to be. You know, now I work at a bus station. But anyways, I digress. So, uh, I drive out there and his girlfriend answers the door.

She's, "Oh, Eric, it's great. You know, welcome to the house. The boys are out by the pool. Here's a beer. Why don't you go ahead and talk business with them? " So, I go out to the pool and Eddie's hanging out with a guy that is the girlfriend's brother and uh he runs the massage parlors in uh Philadelphia. Okay. Yeah.

Tough dude. Yeah. Um I really liked him. Really respect him, but I mean like that could scare you, right? Yeah. And uh and he's like, "Okay, so you got a deal for 5%. I got the same deal as Schiffer. Ah, it's not good enough for me, you know.

I want more. So, I did some research and he pulls out the book um that was by uh Michael McCabe uh on the New York tattooers. Yeah. And he says, "This is the style of book we're going to make. It's going to be this many pages. It's going to cost us this much to make. You put in half. I put in half.

" What do you say? " Didn't even think about it. Like, you know, yeah, let's write this book. So, we uh go inside to eat. There's [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] at this table. Every other sentence. Yeah. And then Eddie's friend says, "I noticed you don't swear at the dinner table.

" I said, "Well, you know, there's no reason. I lived in LA, you know, 39. " And Eddie gives me the tapes and I said, "Okay, cool. " And he says the the brother, there's no street in you. I'm like, you got me on that one. There's no street in me. It's all suburbs. So I went home and started knocking out the tapes.

" That's how and then that's what we started doing and that's that's how the book started. Was there structure to the tapes or was it just kind of him going home every day and rambling, you know, or like he was so structured. Really? Great. Yeah. His notes were impeccable. Um so we we wrote the first book and um I'd say, "Wow, that's a great story. " Okay, that's in the next one.

and he would call a friend and uh they would talk about when it happened, you know, in their minds and they would, you know, collectively put things in a in a linear fashion. Oh, that's great. And um he was very meticulous about that. And then he knew that I was writing it perbatim. So he would record and when he didn't when he was done with that portion he would turn it off, collect his thoughts and then say exactly what he wanted to say. And then that way I would transcribe it word for word and then try to punctuate it to get his cadence. Yeah. Cuz he had a very unique way of speaking and so I would always try to get that cadence, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. And uh I mean I I heard those I listen to those tapes at least 50 times. Yeah. I bet. Yeah. Right. So, and that's how book one started.

And then when book two came, he started talking about Philadelphia. And book two is my favorite because like if you read like John Steinbeck and Canary Row, John Steinbeck takes you right into Canary Row, you know, Doc and all the characters that are working in those caneries and things like that. In volume two, he takes you into Chinatown 1963 64. Whoa. And he tells you about all the characters in that neighborhood like like and the things that they did like one character I always remember is poor Stanley. And Stanley had a limp. And Stanley, poor Stanley worked at Maze Tavern at at Maze Tavern. And um they asked poor Stanley if he wanted to go to the racetrack with him.

" And so they go into the bar with him and May says, "Yeah, sure, Stanley. you can have your paycheck early, but I'm deducting all the money for the the dishes that you broke through the week. " [ __ ] stories like that, right? Like that's the character. Those were the characters in in volume two. And it was just like, man, I'm sure Chinatown's not like that anymore. Yeah. And like he really captured Chinatown in the 60s in Philadelphia.

Brilliant. [ __ ] great stories. Brilliant. Right. Oh man. So [ __ ] Okay. So you guys got got the books rolling and everything and then you started traveling with Eddie to promote the book, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So we did the first one at Mario Bart Mario Bart 2010. And after that weekend I said I'm quitting my job. I'm gonna I'm gonna go travel with daddy. And people said, "I don't think that's a wise idea. " I said, "No, no, no. [ __ ] this. " Yeah.

And so I just was his sidekick for for Balry Stan and and Eddie. How How many shows were you guys doing a month? We did 27 a year. Okay. That's a That's a good That's a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot. 27 a year.

Yeah. And uh that's around the time that's when we met, right? Right. Cuz I remember you come and you moved to Vegas or you were I can't remember where you No, I was living in LA at the time. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Living in Skid Row.

I remember you in the parking lot when we would open the shop. You'd be sleeping in the Cadillac or something. Yeah. Cadillac. Yeah. Cadillac and uh and then we would like give you water or something when you come in. It'd be hot as [ __ ] in the desert. Cadillac rider.

But we enjoy Oh man, that was a lot of fun. I remember one time sitting in the back in the artist area where you were and and you walked up to me and you're like you're like what do you actually do? I said I don't even know. I said, "I don't know, Charlie. I'm just along for the ride. " It was fun. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And I think of some of those shows that we went to um like the one of my favorites was uh in uh Vancouver, Washington.

Yep. Yep. Right across the river from Portland. So fun. Yeah. Yeah. We got my dad Charlie Spencer on the mic. He's he's off set right now, but I miked him up so he could jump in here and there.

Yeah. Um Yeah. So, we sat down at a table in Vancouver, Washington with Lyall Tuttle. Yeah. Eddie and uh Jay Brown. Jay Brown. Okay. Yeah.

And he he's he's uh you know running the Russian crew. Okay. Uh and uh who is one of Eddie's hitmen of the hit squad. Okay. Yeah. They had a hit squad. That's a great story. Kind of.

Yeah. I'm excited to hear that story. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah, that was a that was a great story.

I remember Lyall telling some pretty [ __ ] wild stories that were actually like surprised. Yeah, he was taking over that table like I don't know. I guess we could talk about what he's about. Can we can Can I butt in here? Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember Lyall sitting down with us? " Yeah.

" Yeah. I know. " And you'd go, "Really? " Man, that dude, he was like 85 at the time. Yeah. No slowing down. What happened? Well, you were just telling us stories about how he smuggled it back in like in his cane.

Cane or some sort of cylinder type thing. I remember. I don't know why. Show us his trusty cane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was full of cane.

Yeah. Yeah. Like I literally just brought this back from Columbia. " Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember like the one of the first questions he ever asked me was, "Do you know how much a million dollars in $100 bills weigh? " Like I remember like he gave me the answer like cuz he [ __ ] knew.

He knew. He knew. Yeah. Yeah. He knew. Yeah. He just spent it on Coke. Yeah.

Yeah. He Yeah. Yeah. He was a character, man. Yeah. They all were. They all were. I was like a prerequisite to being a [ __ ] tattooer in those days.

You had to have You had to have personality. Yeah. Who was going to sit in your chair if you didn't have personality, you know? Yeah. And then you had to have the balls to kick them out. Yeah. Yeah. I was watching the little interviews with Stan and uh Eddie and they just they were just ranting.

There's only a few videos on YouTube right now. Those are the ones that those are the ones from that special week. Yeah. Yeah. That was a [ __ ] hell of a week. Yeah. And and and this is the thing is like these seven books, how many tattooers have a book out? You know, how many how many tattooers have part of their story told to have the whole life of Eddie and the fact that he is quite possibly one of the most inter not quite possibly one of the most interesting tattooers in the history of the game.

Yeah. The fact that we got these seven books. Yeah. You know, no, nobody's going to know. There's so many tattooers who were important are just going to fall by the wayside because their stories ain't told. Stanley, Stanley, prime example. We got a few people who know the stories and that that verbal history will go on. But this is this is [ __ ] solidified, you know.

Yeah. And and and someone asked Eddie once, well, you know, is this true? And Eddie says, well, yeah, all the parts are true except the ones I made up. Well, I don't know why. I was just thinking about one story I remember in there where they broke into some brewery in the middle of the night and [ __ ] jumped into the beer in Denmark in the beer. Yeah, that was Who does this [ __ ] Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are.

Yeah, that was with Tattoo. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. They they they got locked in the brewery and uh Yeah. I mean, happens all the time, right? And he says they were swimming in the beer. Yeah, you know, dude, he was a he was also a ladies man.

Insane. Like I you were talking about how he made you feel special. Every time I was around him, my sister was standing next to me. Didn't pay a [ __ ] lake of attention to me, dude. He would literally wouldn't even look at me. I remember an interaction when he came to the shop and you said he was talking to your sister and he's ah, sweetheart. " And then turn right there [ __ ] Eddie. Eddie, you want to you want to sign the door?

No. Yeah, I know. You know who's so so sweet was Stan Mosquitz. " He was so [ __ ] sweet, which is ironic that he had such a hard ass. Stanley was still so obsessed with tattooing up until the end. Yeah. Absolutely obsessed with tattooing. Stanley was.

Yeah. I've saw him at multiple shows just sitting like just sitting there working, dude. Like working. You you know one day we were driving home and this is when I lived in Vegas. " And I I said, "Well, yeah, me too, Stan. " And he says, because here I am a guy with very little education and with elbow grease and a tattoo machine, I was able to support my family, buy property, and make a living with a little education and a tattoo machine. So cool, right? I mean, you know, I was thinking about this recently.

He in 1961 when tattooing went legal in New York City, him and his brother fought and were able to get it overturned for another year. He told me they spent $200,000 on attorneys in 1961. The other day I was thinking about it and I looked it up. 1 million in today's money. Yeah. So for two tattooers to have that kind of scratch at their [ __ ] disposal. Mhm. Was it just tattooing?

Yeah. I mean that [ __ ] everyone's going to have a side hustle, right? Yeah. Stan told me when they lived on the Bowery or in Brooklyn, one of those. I think it was in Brooklyn, his his mom used to make whiskey on the stove top and then put tea bags in it to diet and she sold that to the bums. Brilliant. Okay, that's what he told me. I mean, yeah.

And I believe it. If Stan tells me Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to question lie. But like, yeah, she used to make like rock gut whiskey and sell it to the B. Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah.

" Yeah. Yeah. There was always a little surprising thing. Yeah. with Stan there like we would we would drive from Fort Lauderdale up to Philly and we would pass a spot. " Dan White was the sheriff. We left New York City. I was 13.

We were going to go down and pick fruit. There was one kid that had to get away because apparently he had killed somebody. And S says, "You know, I need to go make some money. " and they got picked up by the sheriff in this little North Carolina town, put in jail for two weeks, and they were eating beans and rice or something like that and some shitty coffee. And I guess Stan's father let him sit there for two weeks so that he'd never run away again. " Wow. W. " How about that?

I never knew that. Yeah. Oh, I I remember the things they used to tell me on the road. Yeah. You know, you would have both of them in your car. Yeah. You guys would be in their car. Okay.

You're driving their car. They're cruising. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and Eric, can you tell the story about the rubber chicken? I love the story. The rubber chicken. You sent me a photo, a picture, and you told me not to to share it with anybody until you did something with it.

So, I'm still holding on to it, guys. never shared it with anybody. Stand by and a rubber chicken. Oh, the No, it was a rubber alligator. It was a rubber alligator. A rubber alligator. Yes. Sorry.

So, we Yeah. Yeah. " And he's pulling out all of his change out of his pocket to pay for this. " So he he grabs the rubber alligator in one arm. He's got oranges in the other and he waddles off to the car and it was just like that weird moment like here's the toughest dude in the world that I know and he's got a rubbery alligator in one hand. Oranges in the other. It was just a really surreal moment. Humanizing.

Yeah. And it was kind of endearing. I've never shared it with anybody. Oh, you can totally share it now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a tough tough [ __ ] but very endearing.

And I said to him, Stan, like I know I know you're homicidal. I mean, I know this. You you don't make you don't even hide it. You know, you talk about right those old stories were scary. Those old stories, you know, cutting someone from neck to ass. " That that's a that's a hard you don't find. And I said, Stan, you know, how are you so sweet to us? Yeah, but you're this hard.

And he says, "Oh, Eric, I wanted to be nice like you. I wanted to be a kid that played little league and went to the park and stuff. I didn't have that chance. I was tattooing bums by the age of 14 and every day was a battle for my life. I had to fight these people with like Tony Pledo, you know, and their chair magic. Right now, people don't realize it's so accessible these days, but back in back in the day, you only got tattooed if you were a scumbag. Regular people did not get tattooed. You were a bad [ __ ] You were a prostitute or you were just a degenerate.

There were no inbetweens, right? So the client hell it they were dealing with it on a daily basis as a teenager. As a teenager. Yeah. I mean at 14 my balls hadn't even dropped yet. Right. Right. I mean you're rollerblading looking at playboys.

I shot him under the bus. I I should I didn't even give you a skateboard. I just threw a roller blades at you. It was the 80s. Maybe I was rollerblading. How about that? It was the '8s. We didn't have rollerb blades yet.

That was the '9s. But that if it was the 90s, I would have been doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that was me. But but uh Yeah. But like you know, so like Stan at 14, he's got to defend himself with a ballpeen hammer.

Yeah. And defend everyone in the shop. Yeah. I mean the story of him hitting the dude in the forehead with the hammer because he, you know, Well, how did that go down? He said something to his father or something. No, I think I think he punched him in the Stan got punched in the stomach. Oh, Stan got punched. Okay.

Yeah. and uh he didn't like that. So he he hit him in the head with the ballpeen hammer. That's another great story. They kept checking on him. They threw him after they were done beating the [ __ ] out of him, they threw him in the back in the in the alley and they were like, you know, uh we we thought in the morning we'd find the rats eating them. Yeah. But he just disappeared.

That was another beating. Oh, that was a different beating. They were always getting in fights, right? you know, and and then like, okay, the weird thing about these books is every once in a while I get a a message from someone's grandkid, uh, Bill Killingsworth. Mhm. His grandson messaged me, "Hey, I read the books. " I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] man. " He's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

" Wow. About his shop on uh Surf Avenue. No, Steel Well. On Steel Well. Yeah. And they said, you know, do you have any more information? I said, listen, everything I got is pretty much in the books, so it's right there, you know. So, like, yeah, Michelle is her name.

Um, yeah, she's contacted me several times saying, you know, uh, is this picture from my grandfather's studio? I said, 'Oh, no, that one's, um, 8th Avenue. Now, where did the bulk of the photos come from for the books? Were they all in in in Eddie's collection? No, he's he he called out to friends. Okay. Okay. Yeah, he called out cuz they are chock full of pictures, those books.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where I think most of those like he didn't have those photos. I don't know where they would be, but um most of the photos he had friends had sent to him and then he'd write on the back what captions he wanted. I gota right and one one of them was piece of [ __ ] great grandson-in-law got a contract on him. Really? Because remember he used to hand out his hit list to you.

Do you remember that? No. Oh [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's in book six or seven. He printed out hundreds of copies of his hit list. People he wanted out of the world.

Okay. And one of them was stretched out because he was deceased. And that was Spalding. Holy [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. I think Spalding was on a lot of people's list. Yeah. Yeah.

" Just so we're clear, these are the people I do not enjoy. Right? " I think the guy's name was Frankie Miller. I can't remember. " He says, "I don't know, Eric. " That was his nemesis, right? And the guy goes, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you're crazy Philadelphia Eddie.

" And he goes, "Yeah, okay. " Weird. You know me, but who are you? And the guy says, "Uh, I'm Frankie's protege. " Anyways, Eddie, good to see you. You know, glad to see you're still kidding. The cops are in trouble now. Yeah, now they're I probably get in trouble for telling this story.

I don't know. And then Eddie goes, "Hey, Eric, go out to the car, get books one and two. " You know, because in book one, you know, that's the beginning story of Jack Dracula, who was like bad luggage for Eddie in uh Philadelphia. You know, he brought him there and then couldn't get rid of him. You know, what the [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and Eddie would say it's these circles in life and they're all connected. And one day we're in the car and I said, you know, I'm really glad that I didn't settle down and have kids cuz I wouldn't have been able to go on this adventure with you and write these books.

I wouldn't have had the money. I'd be raising kids and I couldn't just take off and travel. Yeah. And he he put his finger on the dashboard and he said, "Eric, this what we're doing is destiny. You didn't make this decision and I didn't make this decision. " And that was one of those profound moments with Eddie, like, you know, Yeah. gives me the chills, dude. Yeah, he was tuned into something, man.

Yeah. Like, you know, he would talk about flash. " Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Like when you did the fight club thing, you would put out a description of it and then these images would come back by other tattooers and they were all pretty close. Yeah.

Yeah. Some differences. Yeah. Yeah. But you guys are all feeding on the same mental images and stuff. That shared culture. And as a true Yeah. That is true.

Yeah. Damn. Yeah. And if you're a [ __ ] in this business, people will know. Yeah. And if you're a standup guy, that gets out, too. Yeah. What was Eddie's reason for stopping tattooing?

Because he still stayed relevant in the tattoo industry for two decades after tattooing. What was his reasoning for for quitting tattooing full-time? The customers. Yeah. Huh. They got to him. Couldn't stand them. He couldn't stand them.

Oh, I can't even imagine what he'd do these days. Thought I'd be baking a cake with a file in it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stan would have cut him neck to ass, too. You know what I mean? No joke.

No joke. Yeah. He I I was watching some interviews earlier, too, and he was just talking a lot about how he didn't enjoy the the the fanciness of tattooing, you know, and how it got became upscale and [ __ ] you know, he was just real not again not into it. Yeah. Um Oh, I was also there. He I was watching some videos of him telling he told two different stories about when he got his first tattoo. Was it by Stan? Cuz he went into he was telling a story.

Maxi Peltz did his first tattoo. Yeah. Max Peltz. Yeah, cuz there was one story that he was telling where he went in and he got tattooed by Stan and then he pissed off Stan and then his brother came out in the back holding the [ __ ] ballpeen hammer. No, no. Uh Walter had tattooed two birds on him and charged him what he thought was double. Okay. Okay.

I thought he was talking about Stan doing the tattoo. No. " Yeah. Stan was not. Yeah, cuz he said one of the one of the wings is under my nipple and one's on top of my nipple. And he goes, "The guy just hit me in the back of the [ __ ] head and goes, I don't know what the [ __ ] One's a boy bird, one's a girl bird. " And he So, we still got them, right? Yeah, he still got them.

Yeah. Yeah. But that happened after he got them. He stuck with them. Brilliant. 50 50 cents. And so he gave him I think like a $10 bill expecting $5 change and he said he tucked it in his pocket. He was going to tip you but where's my change?

He's like there's no change. Yeah. On the chest is double. Yeah. It's $5 a piece. $10. And that's when he got mad. And then he started giving Walter a hard time.

And then Stan came around the corner with a chain and a razor. " Yeah. I would not mess with Stan's baby brother. tattooed very much very classic for a very long time. It wasn't until '98 that Stanley started wearing gloves. Oh god. When I first went and got tattooed by him, there weren't no gloves. He They weren't wearing gloves.

They were still It wasn't until he went to do conventions that um Civ pulled him aside and was like, you know, you're going to have to wear gloves. Like people are not going to be cool with this. Yeah. But it was still community ink pots and you know, you went early so that you got clean ink. Yeah, dude. Dude, I got the [ __ ] I got the hammer. What blew my mind was the fact that when I tattoo, my hands are covered in [ __ ] by the time I'm done. There's ink and blood and god knows what everywhere.

When he was done with a tattoo, there was not nothing on his his thumb. His thumb because he used acetate stencils. So, you'd use the thumb to push the the powder into the grooves. Aside from that, there was no ink on his hands, no blood on his hands. He did the finger wrap, the old school finger wrap. So, they'd be, you know, he'd dab with that. Yeah, but it blew my mind that he was such a clean tattooer. We didn't we didn't have to worry about that.

You know, we had gloves on, so it didn't matter how messy we were. But before us, you that was something you took into consideration. You didn't of course you don't want blood and ink on your hands. " Yeah. So much more to think about. You know, another thing I never considered until we were chopping it up one day is that why all the tattooers were in Chattam Square. Yes. Because it was a direct current.

Yes. DC, not AC, right? For their tattoo machine. Yeah. And that was a lot of these areas, a lot of the the lower income the like, you know, the the Bowery and in um in Northark, Virginia. Same thing. There were such poor areas that they couldn't afford to upgrade their electric. So, they stayed with the old electric.

So basically the Bowery was run on a huge bank of batteries, you know, it was just dry dry cell batteries, but the benefit was there was no ripple in the current. So you could literally plug your machine right into the wall. No power unit, no nothing. And you're getting clean current right out of the wall. There's no ripple in your current like there is with AC current. So that's why the Bowerery was the spot for tattooers, you know, up until I I don't think it was until the 60s that they changed it over. thing. Yeah.

Pretty wild. Yeah. It's a trip. Pretty [ __ ] wild. Method to that madness. Method to that madness. Yeah. Yeah.

" Oh. Oh. Oh, I gota I gota Yeah. " He goes, "Well, you know, that's your that's your tube. You get a couple bicycle spokes, that's your needle. That's your needle bar. That's your needle bar. Okay.

Then you start building the machine off of things in the neighborhood. So if all the antennas start going off of cars, right? Someone's someone's building tattoo machines. I remember Stanley telling me that they'd get the stencil material, the acetate, they'd they'd steal them off of um when uh convertible cars became a thing, the back windshield. Okay. Was was easy to turn into a stencil, you know, right? And then um how uh the spring of the machine was the the binding that goes around the cardboard boxes for the refrigerators. Cut that.

Yeah. That that steel that steel wrap. Yeah. They would cut that into the spring and that was, you know, damn. And then they would get the needles from uh Taylor shops and solder those together, you know. Oh, okay. And and and I remember one day Eddie is saying to me like, you know, we were coming back from a convention and he's he's getting upset that there's too many tattooers in eating the pie up like, you know, he goes, Eric, he says, it was a bowl of cherries. you know, you didn't even have to change your needles for six months and your your your um your grip gets a worn in groove from the needle cuz it's keep going back and forth and it just sits in there perfectly.

Then the health department comes around and makes you [ __ ] change. Makes you get rid of your favorite needle. Oh my god. Mild stuff, right? Yeah. I mean, I I saw a little bit of that when I first started, but yeah. Not re Well, I mean, the only reason that we I mean, the in all reality, the only reason that we re that we don't reuse needles is because we use stainless, and stainless wears down super quick. If we were still using carbon, chances are we'd still be using our needles over and over and over again.

Like I was talking about earlier, they did get better as you went on. You know, a carbon steel needle, first off, it it doesn't go dull. It would break before it would get dull. It'll never go dull on you. You'll be the tip would snap off before it would dull down in a customer. Sometimes sometimes, oh my god, I've seen that. But the beauty of it was the fact that carbon was uh had had a texture to it so it would hold ink so much better. Now, working with carbon was absolutely phenomenal.

" That never happened with carbon because they were so saturated in ink. But because carbon rusted, we felt that it was no longer a good thing for tattooing. We should go with stainless. In all reality, what are you going to get? Three hours out of a stainless steel needle before it starts wearing down. If you're using a steel tube, Yeah. you start seeing the damage almost immediately on it, you know? Mhm.

So, I don't know where I was going. So, but what is what is better? What is better? Now, if you're using a sterilizer between between customers, there's nothing wrong with reusing your needle. It's not like a doctor is gonna throw out his [ __ ] scalpel between surgeries. No, it goes into a sterilizer. It is what it is. Yeah.

You know, so I mean I think that the new generation has this misconception of reusing needles and like how disgusting it is and it's like is it is it Yeah. I mean all our dental tools and everything. Yeah. We just they just told us to like take a toothbrush and scrub the skin off, right? Make sure they're get between those [ __ ] and redo it. Phil, you just reminded me of a story. I had an apprentice that ruined all your tubes one time. Remember that?

Who was that? Josh. Josh. Oh, the same [ __ ] that rear ended me last name while I was at a red light. Yeah. Kid was an incredible artist. So good. Incredible.

He was a sweetheart. He was just He was just goofy. Yeah. " and never even seen that. " He I can't remember what he put in there, but it ruin it ruined all of Phil's. Didn't he go to college for like metal smithing, too, ironically, like you know, you know, I saw his his he did like bronze statues like in front of museums. " And I'm like, I'm thinking this kid's like at home with [ __ ] FIMO clay making bongs and [ __ ] And all of a sudden, he's pulling out these pictures of these elaborate like professional photos of like statues of libraries and county buildings. What are you doing?

But he was just he would try to do his own thing. So he decided he's going to experiment with Phil's tubes. [ __ ] all Phil's tubes up. Bill's mad at me. [ __ ] steel tubes you were still using. Did you tell him to do that? " Well, that's a good answer. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, yeah. Nobody told you not to. Bless them. We're telling you now. Bless. Yeah.

It's funny. Yeah. It's crazy, man. Yeah. I want to hear more stories about like I I don't know. Just I love the idea of you traveling across the country with those characters, man. Like I just feel like those are some seriously how much content did you do you you were never really able to pull stuff out of there and put it in the books, right? Because you were speaking like you said you were writing through.

Yeah. " And when you pull it out of the ground, the guy that's mining it will say to you, "Hey, I've got two sacks of this blue and this cobalt changes 2 feet down. It's going to be a different type of blue. " And then with your reds, this is what you do with your reds and your greens. " Okay. So, he was always telling me these these stories. Some of them weren't related to tattooing, but it really showed his personality. " Mhm.

" So, he'd take down his notes and kind of fit that stuff in there. Oh, cool. and one of the guys that he developed inks with um I want to say Wayne Green but I don't I don't if that's remember it's in one of the books I think it's number three and uh the guy worked happened to work for a cosmetic factory and um he knew the chemicals the colors and how to produce them in a way that would cosmetically safe so you could put it in the skin. Yeah. And um he really explained that chemistry to Eddie cuz Eddie's vocabulary talking about the surficants, you know, how you add these things together to make an ink, you know, with diuretic acids and things like that. He understood the chemistry. Whoa. He was a pretty sharp guy.

Yeah. " Whoa. You know, like little weird things like that. " Oh, tell Wayne and I say, you know, and you know, there was always these weird little things where and everywhere we went, somebody knew Eddie. " He's, you know, anywhere he went, somebody knew him. Yeah. " So, he was Yeah. He overall seemed like he had a real positive energy about him.

Just a salesmany naturally just that stoked dude to tell he liked to talk about himself obviously. And that hairdo always man. It just got more and more better the older he got too. Yeah, man. Yeah. With the ducttails in the back. Yeah. Always the white shoes.

Always white shoes. I have a beautiful black and white screwdriver in his hand. Just his um two like the bridge of his nose and up. Yeah, that I took at Mario's show here. I think that's probably the same show we were talking about at that time. I was I was dating a blonde and he I was getting tattooed by Stan and I'm cringing standing on one leg getting my other leg tattooed while Yeah. Yeah. Stan's tattooing that flounder with the [ __ ] ballpeen hammer through it.

And I think Bob Tyrell had just got done getting tattooed. He's tattooing me and then he's pushing down all of Bob Tyrell's bloody tissues with his gloves and then coming back up and finishing my tattoo and I'm trying not to look. So, I was trying to talk to Eddie and Eddie didn't want to have anything to do with me cuz my girlfriend at the time next to me is standing there and he just wants to talk to the blonde. " Yeah. Good luck. It was so fun. Yeah. Yeah.

And then uh and the women were just attracted to him, you know. What were the reactions like when you were traveling with him outside of conventions? I mean, in conventions, he was treated with the utmost respect. How did the average person take Philadelphia, Eddie? [ __ ] He charmed him. Yeah, he charmed them. It like like he would, you know, he would he kind of had his his his go-to things he would say, you know, to women. Yeah.

like, you know, do you want to run away with me? You you have we can go to two places. You can choose Hawaii or Cincinnati, you know. And somehow that line really worked with women. And like then he would say something like pretty provocative, right? " Yeah. Then I tried to say something like that once. " I got shot down.

He's like, "You're not old enough yet, Eric. " you know, like so yeah, people really liked him, you know, and like uh I remember being in a in a bar with him, a bar and restaurant, and you know, cuz he always smelled like Aramis, you know, like always like and you could smell you could smell him a mile away, right? It was always Aramus, right? " Yeah. She's like in her eyes lit like you know who is this guy but like you know I mean the kids loved this guy like and he was good with kids but yeah he he always made a favorable impression on people um no matter where he went like guys and women liked him you know you couldn't help just be around him and be enamored with his presence guy. Did he always rock like the real elaborate suits and stuff or was that more Yeah.

His philosophy was if you want to look if you want to make a million bucks, you got to look like a million bucks. Yeah. Is that something that he he like we were talking about him having a lot of money on the side, but these older tattooers, it didn't seem like they were they would I mean, what was he spending his money on outside of just stacking it? Women. Women. Ladies, ladies of the evening. He did. Yeah, I was going to say I just watched that.

Yeah. Yeah. Pores, Eric. Ladies of the evening. He would trade. Yeah. And he wouldn't trade his time for it. He would get paid and Yeah.

You know, transaction. I don't know. But I remember one time it didn't sound like he gave [ __ ] up for free. Oh, [ __ ] man. That guy. Yeah. I remember one time cuz he always kept his money in his in his in his sock really on his on his left leg. And uh we were going through TSA and they noticed a bulge on his left right on his left leg.

And um Eddie's in a wheelchair because he can't walk these long distances because of the emphyma. Okay. " And the guy's puts on his gloves, you know, and Eddie starts to pull up his slacks cuz he's not, you know, he doesn't wear pants. He wears slacks. Yeah. He pulls up and I see this big stack of hundreds sticking out of his sock. And the TSA guy starts to go to reach for it. Daddy.

He goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. " And then put his pants back down. " You know, that was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. I was just thinking too about the story about him feeding the ducks. A retirement home.

A He loved everything. He loved everyone and everything. And they hated him feeding those ducks. Tell a story. You got to tell a story. So, so like he's feeding the ducks and this lady's like, "Sir, would you please stop feeding the ducks? " And her husband's like, "Just leave him alone. " You know?

And Eddie's, "Yeah, yeah, I'm feeding I'm not feeding the ducks. I'm feeding the elephants, but the ducks keep getting in the way. You know, there's no [ __ ] elephants, but like So then the phone rings and it's it's the HOA manager and they're like, "Uh, Mr. Funk, you've got to stop feeding the ducks. I'm not feeding ducks. You're feeding the ducks, sir. No, I'm feeding elephants. And then he says, you know, I'm not allowed to be alone by myself, you know.

And he starts playing the scenile old guy bit. And then they're like, uh, Mr. Funk, we're going to call, um, Stanley Mosovitz if you don't quit this behavior. and he goes, "Oh, no. " He had mind to preface this, at the door that they're talking him at, there's a skid of duck food. Yeah. Legitimately like I have a photo. I'm going to send it to you so that you could post it on this cuz it's literally him standing at the door feeding the ducks with bags and bags and bags of duck food.

Yeah. So [ __ ] funny. Yeah. I mean, like 50 lb bags. Literally. So funny, right? And he would go out there with just cups and just dump the stuff and and they'd get mad like, you know, the ducks shed. He didn't care.

He's feeding his ducks. That was his philosophy. I'm an old man. This is what I'm supposed to do. Supposed to feed the ducks. Don't call Stanley, you know. " He's like, "No, sir. " He's like, "No, I need two.

That sounds really good. " And he goes, "What about vodka? " And he goes, "Oh, don't let her don't let Putin hear you say that. " You know what I mean? Like anyone that called up to that house, he got some [ __ ] in hand. It was great. It was great. And to be on the listening end, sitting there fast, you know, that old man had so much fun [ __ ] with people.

Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. What um what So he did a lot of other things too also besides tattooing. Like he started a tattoo supply company early on, right? So he had some pretty wild stories with those, right? And and the tattoo association. Really?

That was him. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That was him. [ __ ] way, dude. Yeah.

Cuz he he knew that that there was cuz they had gotten steamrololled in New York and pushed out. And so if he figured the tattooers got together Yeah. and everyone's paying some dues, they've got a bankroll to hire good lawyers. How How long in did he start doing the conventions? Do you know what year he started doing the conventions? His convention. He was the second to do conventions. David Yurku was the first.

That was 76. That was Minneapolis. So it' probably be right around 7778. Oh, really? Still in the 70s, guy. And I remember like it was the first convention we did here in Vegas. And we go to the the the post office to pick up some books and I was wearing a jacket that day too, a nice sports coat. " and walked out.

" No. In the 70s, tested in the waters. What the [ __ ] Right. In the hotel manager's office, he would just pull out a joint and start smoking. No [ __ ] And that's how he would he would test people to see if it was okay. Brilliant. Yeah. Brilliant.

He had his methods and he could read people pretty good. Yeah. You know, sounds like it. He He thought you were crazy. He did. He thought you were crazy. Really? He's absolutely right.

Nailed it. Nailed it. Yeah. Nailed it. Yeah. This guy's a nut, Eric. That's you know you know feeling and like this like your story of how you got into tattooing and like how two big bikers knocked on your door to take your machines away from you when you were a teenager. So cool.

It's [ __ ] classic. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And you kept pushing. I did. I never gave up.

I did now. I I've recently given up. Yeah. You know what I mean? like, you know, uh, you know, I I I can just see your parents answering the door and there's two big dudes from a motorcycle club. The one who was the most thrown off were the bikers. " And they were like, "Come on, kid. " Like, it just [ __ ] cuz they were there to kick the [ __ ] out of someone.

But they weren't going to beat the [ __ ] out of some 14year-old kid, you know? " You know? So they gave me the option find somebody to to back you would be [ __ ] done right now. You know if I were 5 years older Oh you would have gotten I would I'd be done. Yeah we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'd be writing it. So there was that guy Renegade. Yes.

Right. And um he used to tattoo he was trying to get into the business and uh Jack Armstrong uh he went into Jack Armstrong's shop asking about an apprenticeship where everyone else shut him down. Jack Armstrong was on the He says, "Yeah, okay. " He says, "Hold on a second. I make a phone call. " That was his quote. They were artists with that cane. And uh yeah, like Jack Armstrong just stalled him until his goons got there.

[ __ ] brilliant. You know, I mean Jack Armstrong could have done it himself, but I guess you know when you've when you've climbed up the ladder high enough, you don't need to get your hands dirty anymore, you know? Yeah, maybe Michelangelo doesn't need to mix his own paints. That's it. That's it. A couple goons do it. Yeah. But I mean, you know, Armstrong was another crazy personality.

Amazing personality. Right now, he used to tattoo in Vegas for a while, didn't he? Yes, he worked with Cornfed for a for a while, right? Yep. Yeah. Cornfed would bring him around to all the conventions. Really? Yeah.

One were in Vegas at the time, for sure. Right. Yeah. Oh [ __ ] Yeah. And uh Yeah. I mean, like, wasn't he And he was missing a piece of his ear and he had one eye. Yeah. One eye.

Yeah. Jack tough, you know. Okay, then you think about like like tattooers back in the day. He was another one who he started tattooing. His story went back to like I want to say like 10 11 years old. Jack Armstrong. He was extreme. I remember reading an article about him as a child.

He had like a star. He had a kit like on his like uh on his like radio flyer [ __ ] sled thing, you Yeah, that's what he just he'd just ride around on his bicycle with his radio flyer on the back and all of his equipment and just what as a child? That's like legend [ __ ] dude. That's pretty badass. At one point, he was the longest continuing tattooer. When he passed away, he was the longest continuing tattooer. Where did he start out? I don't remember.

I want to say he was Midwest. I want to say he was somewhere in the Midwest, but I I'm I'm not 100%. I don't know too much on Jack's uh history. No, neither do I. I just know that he was someone that you did not mess with. He started as a kid with a wagon. And um if he if he stalled you, you better start running cuz he's called somebody. Yeah.

There was another tattooer that Eddie talked about was uh Dicky Hillburn, and he was a guy that was on a skateboard, didn't have legs, and only had one arm. He was a one- arm tattooer. What? And he managed to support a whole family as a tattooer with no legs and one arm and just damn tattooed with one hand. Yeah. You know, I mean like with a nub. Yeah. No [ __ ] Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, Stony wasn't much different. I mean, Stony didn't have use of his legs and and his hands. He held he used one hand to to, you know, to facilitate the other hand, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then Okay.

Okay. So then like you know you I remember one time and when when I think of Stony I always I always think of uh Buddy Wheeler and Charlie Wheeler. Never had the never had the pleasure to meet Charlie Wheeler cuz he had passed on before. If he's anything like his son he had to have been a hell of a guy. Yeah. Total gentleman. Right. " And I said, "Oh, you know, we're going to the conventions and we're um we're selling them.

" And this guy says, "I don't mean to overhear you, but I'm from Louisville. Maybe you should give uh Charlie, Tattoo Charlie, a call. " He shows a nice guy. Did uh his son ever tell you about the time Lyall to Lyall Tuttle shot him in the leg with a 22? Oh my god. Of course he did. So of course Lyall did that. So I called Buddy.

I said, "Hey, I was just at a coffee shop. " And I I informed the guy that your dad's passed on. But I just thought you'd want to know that your dad's legacy is still known as a guy that could move things and is a respectable person in tattooing. And uh he goes, "Well, that's really nice to hear. " And I said, "Yeah, well, you know," and I guess they were messing around with a gun in the shop and Lyall shot him in the leg, the gun went off. Oh my god. And played it off like it was a mistake. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Oh my god. Ly Tuttle was a what a character that guy was. No joke, you know. Another ladies man, too. Like stuck on the women. Any tattoo convention we were ever at.

He was just he would just follow. Yeah. Follow him around was young and tattooing or whatever or was showed any interest in him. Right. And then and then there's Stan. He's the first one on the floor and the last one to leave. No joke. He wasn't there.

Hardest work. wasn't there for the ladies. No, he didn't give a [ __ ] about anything other than tattooing. So, yeah. And he would sit on one cheek of his ass like cuz he had to sit in a way where his legs could not get arthritic on him. Yeah. And he would sit in this weird position for 12 hours. He always looked really uncomfortable.

Oh, I've seen I mean, we've seen him in in his late 70s tattooing on his knees. You know, it didn't matter. It just so long as he was tattooing 9 in the morning. Yeah. Every morning he'd start at 9:00 in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. He'd be after the show was shut down.

He'd be there for an hour after everybody left. If they wanted to pay if they wanted to pay and get tattooed by them, he would be there. Yeah. So cool. That's amazing. Yeah. He wasn't there for the drinks to blow the ladies [ __ ] and baby dolls. He was there for the the moola, the bankroll.

Yeah, man. He used to he used to kill it. Seven decades. Yeah. Seven decades of tattooing. That's so crazy. That's so cool. Yeah.

Yeah. And did you ever get tattooed by him? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I got him. Yeah.

Did I get tattooed up by him outside of his shop? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I got tattooed by him at a convention here, too. So, I got I got the skunk in 98 at his at at SNW tattoo like the year before they closed. And then I got tattooed by him. It's dated. Both of them I dated.

I think it's 98 and 2012. Yeah. Damn. Always wanted to get that by his brother. Right after I got out of the chair, so he was still stuffing the towels down. Yeah. Same one. Yeah.

" What do you want to do? " Where'd you get that? I don't know. I know. I I I see it in my head now. But yeah, I got to go on a pogo stick somewhere. And I asked him when he was done. " And he looks up.

" I said, "Sort of. Yeah. " And I love how his flash near the end of the weekend was just a pile of designs, you know? It's like and then like lowercase like it's the rummage cell, you know? like saying I'll get this one. Yeah. Okay. You know that top dollar price.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the the the conventions that we went to that was poorly attended but was the best convention we ever went to was the one at Hollywood in Hollywood, which was the great convention. Yeah. And that was the roast of uh Hanky Panky. Yes. And Bob Roberts roasted him. Well done at that convention.

That was fun. Did you go out there? Who'd you go out there with? Cuz I don't Oh, you did? Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I don't think I went to that one for some reason. That was a good time.

Yeah, that was a good time. Yeah, there was there And I remember Nobody showed up. Nobody showed up. That was so good. There was nobody dead ass convention. It was just tattooing tattooers. Yeah, it was just rubbing elbows all weekend and it was a good good time. Absolutely.

Yeah. Uh let's see. Good time. Charlie was there. Uh [ __ ] everybody. Everybody was there. Yeah, it was great. Yeah.

Gil Monty was there. Eric Inkmith. Eric Inkmith. Right. Right. That was a character. Yes, he is. He is a character.

And I again, man, so many characters these days. I don't want to meet no new [ __ ] tattooers. I got nothing in common with these schmucks. Did Did Eddie have any like cats that were still around that were hitting conventions that he kind of not buted heads with, but like wasn't a big fan of? I mean, at that age, he's probably There was There was one one guy I remember his name was Todd, but I can't remember his last name. It was down in LA. I remember Eddie had had chased him once down in Long Beach and the guy had locked himself into an area where Eddie couldn't get to. And when we were at that convention in Hollywood, guy Todd, I can't remember what his name, last name was, he approached Eddie and Eddie goes, "That was a long time ago, Todd.

Don't worry about that. " Uh, and that's when he was working with um Bob uh Shaw. Bob Shaw. He was working with Bob Shaw. Yeah. And he had a problem with someone down further down the pike or something like that. Yeah. You know that that famous pineapple story?

Yes. Okay. So, we're at Bob Shaw. We walked out of where Bob Shaw shop was, and we're walking to the car where I have it parked. " It was 25 ft from the shop to the checkered board lounge. That's how far he made it before he got a beer and got drunk with the big Samoan that took him to Hawaii. He made it 25 ft and never got the pineapple juice. And never even got the pineapple juice.

Muzzy Enus, what's his name? Muzzy. Muzzy. Yeah. And he he said he could smell the beer. 25 ft. Oh, I just listened to that. It's a parking lot now.

Yeah. Okay. But like that's, you know, and I was like, man, if like cuz you you kind of get the the impression from when he tells the story that the checkerboard lounge was quite a ways down the pike. No, it's just literally from here to Is that the shop where we all signed the door? The wall. It might I mean that was definitely hike. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And and you had bought the 55gallon drum. Well, I wanted one. I wanted to bring it home. They offered it to us. " And I'm like, it was all the petroleum jelly. And it was it was like it was like half. And I looked at my girl.

" Yeah. " And you showed me a picture of it and like there's dirt and grime on the top layer of the petroleum. Still had the strange color. It was a very strange color. Oh my god, that was crazy. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, that vintage supplies aren't said that fell off a ship, right?

That's what they got that off a ship, I believe it. And they used that everybody, every tattooer in the shop would scoop in the morning a couple slap and you'd use that all day. And that thing was there was still a third of it in there. It had been used since the probably the 40s. So wow. So [ __ ] roguish. And they offered to give it to us and we're like that shop. I just don't know where to put it.

Just in the lobby in the corner of the lobby just got this [ __ ] [ __ ] gross. Yeah, it was pretty gross. I remember that picture. Yeah. And I remember like smell bad. Even the cup looked ancient. You know what I mean? The cup looked like it was something in my grandparents.

Right. It was like it was like brown Vaseline, like brown on the top. It was a very strange color. Yeah. You know, and that was a good And the way those guys would save money like that, you know, I mean, yeah, they they were running businesses, you know. That's the thing was Eddie was saying like, you know, when he was a teenager, you'd find a spot, you'd sweep the floor out, you'd build a little bench, you put your flash up, and you're open for business, right? Yeah, that was it. I was I was thinking about that earlier.

I was like, how many shops he opened? He said he had opened. Yeah, I was going to say 50 something, but yeah. 60 shots. And he would had the same formula down. Throw some chairs in the corner. Yeah. Sweep.

So respectable. The Doc Dog story, right? He he opened was it um where was it? It was in Van Eyes where Doc Dog Shop was and the rule at that point there was not a written rule. It was respect among you know tattooers. Yeah, it was a 10 mile rule. And um Eddie went to Doc Dog before he opened and said, "I found a place. I'm 10 miles.

" And uh he proceeded to build out the shop. " Yeah. And Eddie handed him the keys, walked away. Yeah. Those those two gentlemen had such a good friendship, you know. Uh, I got a lot of respect for Doc Dog, you know. I mean, he was the first to open in in Las Vegas. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, he kept a lot of tattooers out of here for a long time. Yeah, he did. Um, you know, 77 to 93 he was the 77 to 93. Yeah. And then when Mo passed away, who was a tattooer at his shop, he took care of Mo's final expenses. Right. Right.

You know, I mean, that's a standup guy. Yep. You know, I mean, uh, your your story about him buying a boat or something. Oh my god. Dog, $100,000 in cash in a McDonald's bag. Yeah. From from Ernie Becker who owned Arizona. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. " Like, it's, you know, that's awesome. 100,000 in cash, right? you know, and I've the most money I've ever had in my life in cash is $4,000 and it went pretty [ __ ] quick. I couldn't imagine $100,000. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that was in what, 2015? I had $4,000. So that's like a long time. Right. Now, now I get paid and the bills get paid. That's it, you know. So, so 60 60 shops like what all what all areas of the country like cuz he went from the east coast all the way to Hawaii.

Uh never in Hawaii. Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. Do you know who he worked for in Hawaii? I want to say it's Mugsy Enus. It's in the books, but yeah, I think it was Mugsy Enus and uh it wasn't for for Sailor Jerry cuz Sailor Jerry was around the corner. I want to say it was Mugsy Enus.

Okay. But but it was back in the day like Yeah. 1950s that he worked in Hawaii. Yeah. Holy [ __ ] And at that time the sailor rush was over. You know, the sailors weren't really really there like they were in World War II. Was he opening up specifically like chasing though that crowd or a crowd or like what kept him moving the Well, he I he liked the adventure of Yeah. the road and what's over the hill, what's around the corner.

I think he liked the hookers in the way. Yeah, that makes sense. Absolutely. And he was in LA, too. Like he he opened up in LA. Yeah, he opened it up in in downtown LA. Um he was in Thousand Palms Palms, you know, by the military base there with Dominic Chance. Yeah.

He was a psychopath. Really? Okay. I asked him. " Yeah. Psychopath, as he puts it, which the level of psychopath from really wild dudes like these dudes, right? I'm like, if if dude is put on psychopath level, you got to be something. God damn, that's okay.

Yeah, the Chance Brothers. That's all in book one. And uh Dominic Chance and Eddie opened up that shop on 8th Avenue. And uh before that shop opened, Eddie gave his tried to open a shop in Rockaway Beach. Uh Brooklyn, Brooklyn Blackie suggested he go there. Um Eddie's parole officer had told him, "Everyone that he's picking up has Brooklyn Blackiey's card in their wallet. You're not to be associating with these people. " So Brooklyn Black, he suggested he go to Rockaway Beach.

So that shop does okay, but the cops are on him like white on ice and they're going to shut this thing down. " And Dominic Chance says, "Why don't we go to 8th Avenue? I got a spot picked out. " And Dominic Chance explains to him um I had opened a shop there and uh a really bad fight broke out in my shop and we sent quite a few people to the to the hospital in an ambulance and that is why you can't have a shop. And Dominic went on to explain that. Um, some guys came into the shop to mess with his little brother, you know, and the other brothers came around and locked the door and then they proceeded to beat up these guys and like someone got their nose bit off apparently. [ __ ] name. And um, yeah.

How many was hungry? Tattoo shops used to be awesome. Right. Right. And uh and he said that's why the cops don't want a shop in Rockaway Beach. " And he says, "This guy's a psychopath. " Yeah. So, you know, you know, Dominic Chance like he says he was just a a a guy you did not mess with, you know.

So, damn. Yeah. No. Psychopaths. Yeah. Yeah. I want to hear all those stories. Yeah.

There's so much. They're all in the book. So that Yeah. Yeah. No joke. This is what I'm saying. The book's got to get put back out eventually. Yeah.

So yeah, I kind of wanted to say HBO Nimbled and they were interested and um I remember them calling Eddie when we were on the road to ask him some stories. They asked him about the the hammer fight in uh Coney Island where the guy got a gaff hook put through his head and then they beat the [ __ ] out of him and the guy disappeared. And it's a hell of a story. Yeah. And um Do you have that story? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, there was a guy named Big Mike that um was coming around Coney Island harassing people for free tattoos, which you didn't get. " And this guy, Big Mike, says, "You tattooed my little brother, and my dad's really sore about it. " He's not 18 yet. He's 17. Yeah. And Eddie said like he knew the law was 16 at that time.

So this guy's full of [ __ ] But like we we we're going to have a battle. " And Eddie said, "Yeah, sure. Okay. Have a seat. " Oh my god. And he said he reached up, he grabbed down, grabbed his hammer, and he says he came up and nailed him right in the forehead. " And Eddie says, "Yeah, that's right. " And the guy left.

And then he came back a couple days later and um started a fight in the shop and beat the [ __ ] out of Eddie's bouncer and sent him to the hospital. Busted up his face. Eddie had a bouncer in the shop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz while you're tattooing, you're going to have someone watch your back. Okay.

Yeah. That's pretty gangster. I like it. Uh Coney Island Freddy who's in Brighton Beach comes up to Eddie and says, "We got a real problem with this big mic guy. He's been harassing me. He beat up your guy in your shop. We've got to do something about him. " And the guy Mike poked his head out and went down the street and went into Brooklyn Blackie shop.

So Coney Island Freddy walks up to Eddie's shop and says, "Hey, that guy's in the neighborhood again. " And Eddie says, "I had my blackjack. " That's as far as he got in the sense. And he says, so his long shoreman pulled out gaff hooks and hooked this dude and drug him outside and started kicking the [ __ ] out of him. And Eddie says, "All you could hear was this thud, thud, thud, thud. this big Mike guy gets up, grabs the two long shoremen and slams their heads together because he's a big guy. And uh says um to Eddie, "You little [ __ ] you've started a real war now. " And the long shoreman backed up.

" Oh my god. And Eddie said there was a guy in the crowd that used to hang at Eddie's shop and his name was John. " Eddie, I know who this big mic is. And my uncle told him to stop using our [ __ ] last name. Uh, you two guys, the long shoreman, you come with me. We're going to go talk to my uncle. Eddie, this guy's never going to bother you again. And um that's the last Eddie ever saw of this big mic guy.

" "Right over there. " Yeah, that's where I got the the first time. The first time. " He says, "Oh, okay. The hotel's gone, but it's across the street here. " And I'm I'm kind of getting the place of things. And I said, "So when you were a kid and this went down," he says, "Eric, I was watching my back. " And he says for like a month I was on pins and needles not knowing what was going to happen.

And he says that big Mike guy just disappeared. You know, he used the wrong name. [ __ ] He used the wrong name. Yeah. You know, and that was the story he told the HBO guys. Yeah. " Boardwalk Empire, actually, is what they said. Yeah.

[ __ ] brilliant. Boardwalk Empire is what they said. Absolutely brilliant. And it says we've already got Boardwalk Empire. Oh, so they weren't [ __ ] around with like a documentary type thing. They wanted to write, right, a show about his life and everything. I still think it's coming, dude. I don't know.

I don't know. The reason I don't know happened, you know. I mean, those stories are [ __ ] beautiful. He was married to three sisters. This is this you can't make this [ __ ] up. Two sisters, but he was with all three of them. That story is awesome. You got to tell that story.

So, yeah. All right. So, I know there's a million stories, but these are so great. When when he got to Pennsylvania, and now this is coming from the stories from him, and I'm I'm going to piece it together, and I'm I'm sure there's an ex-wife out there that'll argue say that didn't happen that way. And I get it, okay? But this is the story that I got from Eddie was that there was two girls that worked at a lunchonet and I he was dating one of them and then their sister came to visit and he started an affair with her and that led to marriage and a child and and a and a divorce. It's all in book two. I mean, holy [ __ ] man.

You want to talk about a conjugal bliss, this [ __ ] was not it. And uh so he divorced her years later. He married he met up with the girl he was originally dating had a twin sister. He met up with her and married her. They got divorced and then he married her again. Okay. So, dude, you know, I love it. Like, it's such a good story.

I mean, like, but he You can't make it up. You can't make this [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I' I've never talked to any of his ex-wives. Okay. I don't know if I want to.

I want to see how if their names are on that list. No. Okay. Was it all men on that list? No. His sister was on that list. Oh, what? His his and her husband.

Yeah. Yeah. And that was over the his daughter got off the list. Oh wow. They made amends. Okay. Chuck Spalding. And who was the who was the other one?

Chuck Spalding. Oh, was it? No, but it was his Was it his ex-wife? This just reminds me of that Billy Madison scene where Steve Bashimi is like [ __ ] putting the lipstick on and he's just crossing out the the name. Yeah. Back to Boardwalk Empire. Yeah. And he used to he used to carry that list around in his inside pocket.

Get the [ __ ] out. And when he would meet someone for the first time, he'd introduce himself as Crazy Philadelphia Eddie. Yeah. And then hand them this list. And he had the hit squad, too. So [ __ ] could get handled. Yeah. Yeah.

That's That's brilliant. That was with So he's known for having goons like Well, they were they were they were they were they were compadres. Yeah. Uh so it was Bob Shaw. Um, RJ Rosini, Pete Pulos. Yeah, Peter Pulos, who was probably the baddest [ __ ] of the bunch, right? Eddie, and then Doc Dog. Those were the five.

No [ __ ] So, he ran that close with Doc. Really close. Wild. Yeah, that's cool. Um, I never got to meet him. I stood in the lobby of the shop and was scared to go upstairs. Yeah. Well, I was like 14 at the time.

You You approached that man with a lot of respect. Yeah. Yeah. I I I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Just like Eddie or Stan. Like I was a kid, dude. I was like [ __ ] terrified of those dudes.

Yeah. Um so yeah. So they had an agreement that if you if someone opened up in your neighborhood, you would go on vacation with an alibi and then they would come in take care of your of shutting that business down and then you'd come back from vacation and that tattoo shop that opened up wasn't there anymore. Damn. And yeah, you're still the only one left in town. Doc was like known for bombing out Dante's shop. the the the tattooer that he got tattooed by when I was like Yeah. Junior.

It's just here. Just a rumor. Just a rumor. Fake news. Fake news. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The practices were Yeah. They could have been real. Yeah. Right. But yeah, I mean, if you're if you're too close Yeah. You're too close. I mean, that's Yeah.

We used to have a lot of people come asking questions about those. Yeah. Nothing. Ah, man. So, now I'm uh I'm working at a bus station now, you know, which is just as crazy as the tattoo shop. Mhm. And um I feel like you're drawn to this. Yeah.

Yeah. Drawn to the crazy. And uh I always figure I don't talk [ __ ] about no about nobody. I don't rat on anybody. I stay in my lane. You stay in yours and we'll be fine. We'll be fine. Like I ain't going to I'm not going to mess up your jam.

You're doing something. I don't know anything. No one's gonna ask me questions and they say, "Oh, yeah. Okay. " No, you shut the [ __ ] up. Yeah. You just do your job. You go home and you collect your paycheck.

That's what you do. That's how unions work. So, when I got that job, No, I kind I shouldn't tell that story. I've got a I've got a scotch. When I applied for the job, refill when I Okay, so I applied for a job because I needed a job and it was right before Eddie passed. And so I applied for a job as a bus driver here in Vegas. And I I went in for the interview and the guy says to me, first question, what would you do if you saw someone in the company doing something that was against policy? I was like, well, I'd um I would uh I think I might uh I would He says, "Good.

You're not a snitch. " The answer is safety, safety, safety. Can you start next week? I said, "Nah, my boss is really sick. I need to go out to Florida and I I got to pay vigil. I got to So, we were there until, you know, Eddie died. " And uh they gave me some time to do that and then I became a bus driver. Yeah.

But yeah, so like you know, we were with Eddie until till the end. That was Jerry Red's Stan Huey from uh from Philly and two other of his friends from from uh from Florida that he had met at Huie's bar, Lanne and Dan. So the five of us kind of kept guard at his door because he didn't want anyone from his family coming. So we were we were keeping guard for him, you know. And uh when he passed uh tattoo shop, Lab Bomba tattoo shop had sent some flowers and I put uh a white rose on Eddie's chest. They came and, you know, took his body, cremated him, and that was it. So that's what he wanted. He didn't want a a funeral or anything.

You know, he always thought those were barbaric. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So, and it was, you know, a hurricane came in and they said, "You guys have to go home. " And so, we went home and then the morning they called us and he kind of passed when the hurricane was going through. Which is fitting.

Yeah. You know, that dude was a hurricane man. Yeah. Yeah. He was crazy. Yeah. Was awesome, wasn't he? Yeah.

So fun, man. Yeah. Those are Dude, I So, okay. So, we can't get this book right now. Somebody who who was the supplier that has copies of Jimmy Luck. Jimmy Luck. Litwalk. Whitlock.

Yeah. Lies. Lies. Okay. Yeah. He's got Yeah, he bought he bought what was left. Okay. So, there you go.

Yeah. And then um Litwalk. Whitlock. There's a lit walk and I mix I I can I always say the wrong one, too. I always say the wrong one, too. One's a killer tattoo or the other one's a killer machine builder, right? And I I told him, and my word is on it, I'm not going to reprint reprint these books. Really?

Yeah. Cuz he bought the lot and um you know, I mean, I couldn't ship them from Florida all the way to Vegas. Yeah. And so uh we agreed on our price and I told him uh I I won't reprint, you know, cuz that would cut his Yeah. his sale. So I imagine if you got a hold of him, you could get set up some books. Yeah. Um, I am putting them out as ebooks.

Okay. One, two, and three are up already. And so, like, if you go on Amazon to Kindle or whatever, and you type in Crazy Philadelphia Eddie, books one, two, and three are there. Now, isn't there somewhere to find the audio books as well? Yeah, I've got two of them up. Okay. And those, if you go on to Spotify and type up Crazy Philadelphia Eddie, you'll hear the audio that he gave me. Yeah.

To write the books. The thing about that audio is he recorded it on a cassette tape with the recorder in front of him. So the audio quality is not it's not 100. It's not modern. I mean it's totally analog. Yeah. There's no digital but you can still feel his sol. Dude, I I got to listen to a little bit of it.

Dude, it's so good. And and sometimes it's a little rough to listen to. Yeah. But I mean it's raw. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, uh, it's kind of like listening to, um, a wax cylinder of maybe Abraham Lincoln's speech of Abraham Lincoln had a wax cylinder. Like, it's not going to, you know, I mean, Eddie didn't want to learn how to use a digital recorder, right?

[ __ ] that [ __ ] you know? He had no interest in modern technology. Yeah. I just always thought it was so special your relationship with him and and I've always felt incredibly grateful to be a part of that and especially part of it in person, you know. He loved you. He he loved he could son. Yeah. Yeah.

He would introduce me as his son sometimes. Well, dude, you guys you Yeah, you guys are so similar and so fun. But what you did for him, the fact that he's immortal because of these books. Yeah. There's no other tattooer that has that. no other tattooer whose whole story was told, you know. So the right before he died, I was working a job as a tour guide here in Vegas and uh on on one of my shifts, he gave I I got a call. So I always answered his calls right away and he says, "Eric, I'm I'm having a hard time breathing.

" And I said, "No, I'm not calling Stan. " Yeah. Yeah. " And uh so I I hung up the phone. I called 911 again to check on the ambulance. " Right? Like I mean like two am like two 911 calls for this guy from people that are out of state. I mean that's like how much this guy is respected and adored.

And then uh he's in the hospital. " I said, "Well, you don't get a decision on this one. " And Timmy couldn't make it down, but I uh I managed to get there on a flight. " He says, "Listen, uh I'm not doing so well. Um it hurts a lot to breathe. " And with that, I've I got to go cuz my lungs hurt. And that was the last thing he said to me. Wow.

And uh you know I mean then you know he passes and about 6 months later I had this dream and he's like hey Eric doctor's [ __ ] up. I'm not dead. And I said oh yeah Eddie they [ __ ] up. Where are you? I'm in heaven. And I was like all right. You made it. You made it man.

You know like you know I Yeah. you know, that was, you know, ah, to have a mentor like that. And that guy taught me a lot. Yeah. Um, [ __ ] man. Don't ever hold anyone else's pistol. Don't get your prince on that [ __ ] gun. You need to have that advice as a as a grown person.

Yeah. You might get your ass shipped to El Salvador these days. Was that an MS-13 gun? You know what I mean? Like, relax. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I mean uh you know and the way that like like uh like in book seven there was a young woman that had passed away and he talked about her for like six pages and he says I want the p the the the book to lay out so her picture is on each of those pages. And it was a young girl that had died and he said, uh, as her kids grow up, I want them to know that their mom was important, you know. Damn, dude. Yeah. So, I mean, like he was always thinking of like the next generation. Yeah. You know, I mean, uh, that's a that's a that's a that's a heart of gold. Yeah.

" I'd say, well, he's got a heart of gold, iron fists, and a spine made of steel. That's the best way to describe that man. Mhm. You know, he's in like a sharp. And that dude, if you were changing him in Stan, you were changing the ninth gate of hell, they'd come and get you. Yeah. Loyal Tuttle would drive him there right to the ninth gate, guys. They'll get Eric, you know, in some trouble.

I'll get us back. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah. Those guys like uh we won't have a generation like that again with tattooers, I don't think. No. Absolutely not. I remember when you travel with them, you had the the the the movable bar that And it was not a small box either. It was was the bar was not a small box. " Yeah. You know, that's that's my job.

I That's a hard job when you macro. I move Eddie's stuff. That's hard work. I do the heavy lifting and I mix the drinks. What do you What do you want from me? You know, so much fun. Yeah. Yeah.

That's man. Good times. Every time I see a bottle of Malibu, I got to think of them. [ __ ] Yeah. Malibu and pineapple. Yeah. And then vodka, orange juices. That was another one.

And then uh yeah, that was sometimes bloody marys. My ties. Basically anything that was He's ready to [ __ ] roll. And a beard of ice. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Just just hold if you can swim in it, I'll drink it. That was brilliant, you know. Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that dude could hold his liquor.

Yeah. I was wondering how much he would hold it or drink it. Yeah. Both. Just always on hand. Always seven. And when he would fly Southwest, by the time you landed, there was like eight swizzle sticks. Okay.

Yeah. And and then he would sit like on the on the aisle cuz we was always the first to get on the plane cuz he had, you know, he needed a chair. Yeah. And uh I would sit in the the window seat cuz I didn't want to sit in the middle. And he'd put his newspaper on that middle seat and if a pretty girl walked by, he pick the paper up and start reading it. Hairy gorilla walks by, paper goes back to that one. Oh man, he he was cool. He was fun to travel with.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah. I don't know, man. I feel like we could we could definitely keep going. You have anything else you want to go over? I'm like so incredibly grateful for this. Yeah.

I'm enjoying this really fun because it, you know, I miss those days when we were out traveling and doing those conventions. Yeah, man. We had such a good time. And you guys did most of it by car, not even flying. Half and half. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then towards the end, uh, I was taking the Greyhound with the books from place to place. Yeah. Those stories were great, too. You were riding a lot on the back of a Greyhound bus. Like best dressed guy on the bus. Yeah. Yeah. There was some weird [ __ ] that happens on those Greyhounds.

Was there a lot of like uh I don't know. I'm just kind of, you know, on those long open roads and those trips, was there a lot of silence and you guys had that ability to just be comfortable and just chill and and not talk the whole time? Yeah. Cuz he would be thinking on the roads. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then uh then he'd start talking, you know, and Okay, that's got to be in the book.

Yeah. And then he'd start writing his notes and he'd start making calls and kind of laying out the timeline and then he'd go back if he needed to, you know, flash back and circle back. Yeah. So, I mean, on the roads, he would just think and then uh he would say something weird and I'd say that's got to be in the book. M you know whether it was about his childhood, his dad cuz you know he loved his dad and uh he would tell me stories about his dad in in New York City as a metal worker for the city and that his dad could just make anything with his hands. His dad was very industrial. Industrious. Yeah.

And so those stories are pretty cool. Like would make toys and he he uh he invented a quick draw game. His father, do you remember this? He invented a in in arcades in Coney Island, his his father invented a game where you'd you'd shoot against a quick draw robot that that his father invented. Yeah, I remember him talking about it and uh he he he he spoke of his father very highly. Spoke very highly of his father. Not so much his sister, but his she was on the list. She was on the list.

She was on the list and she deserved to be on the list. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he did not like her husband. No. No. No.

That was over the beef with the supply company. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was Yeah. And that's all in book like four or five.

Yeah. And then it explodes on six. And there was two supply companies that exploded, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. One was National and one was United, I think.

United. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then uh and it's weird like I'll have friends in LA that say, "Oh yeah, I met this guy named Steve used to have a vintage clothing shop on Fourth Street. " You know, Eddie just had had enough. And it spilled out into the streets, you know. Yeah.

Was he a pretty big guy? I don't I He was like a smaller guy when we were hanging out with him. Obviously, he was pretty old dude, but he was he was he was a big dude. Yeah. Like a husky dude back in the day. He was built like a brick [ __ ] house when he was younger. Yeah. Yeah.

He he was barrel-chested, man. Yeah. And he was he was pretty fit, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh he didn't back down from anything. Yeah.

I was just gonna say he's not afraid of [ __ ] thing. Like always ready to just try it out and figure out how it works and get through it whatever problems come to it. Now his adopted son, how many kids did he raise? That's a good question. Let's see. So he didn't have any of his own kids. Um he had one. You said he had one son.

Yeah. His daughter Ivon. Oh, right. Right. So two, right? Yeah. Donn Ivon, Joe, Bill. I think that's it.

Just three. Three if I can remember correctly. Yeah. And then like there was there was uh Sharon had a daughter or something like that. And there was a guy that had a contract out on Eddie. Oh my god. Um cuz he was dating Sharon and she was writing letters to this guy that had a contract out on him cuz they they had had a kid together. And uh the the guy sent someone to check Eddie out in the shop.

And the report came back that like, "No, Eddie dotes on these kids. " Right. And um God, I hope I don't get whacked for telling those kind of stories. And uh you know, I'm leaving names out of it. " And also in the letter, Eddie's ex-wife said that he locks me in a closet. And this guy said, "There's no way you could lock that woman in a closet. " And so that's what got Eddie off the hook was like the guy figured out like this is this is [ __ ] you know? Yeah.

And there there he goes. He survives a hit, right? I mean, like, yeah, the guy was it was unstoppable. Yeah. You mentioned he was in he was on parole, so he was in and out of jail once as a teenager. Oh, okay. Yeah. He was a burglar.

Okay. And his name came up in an investigation. Really? " No [ __ ] Like he's a teenager. As a teenager. Right. This is a [ __ ] fun story. So, we go to that convention and we pick up Stan and I can't remember where the convention is.

I think it's near North Carolina, Norfolk, Virginia, somewhere in there. And uh yeah, we were with Stan and um we're going to go to the next convention and Stan's riding with us. " And he says, 'Well, the money that I took in that house was say like it was in the second it was in the second book on the shelf. And the husband would say, "No, no, no. " Wow. So, yeah. So, there's stuff I don't even know. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's book eight. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Seven's enough. Yeah. Yeah. That was absolutely brilliant. Yeah. Those were good times. Yeah. Yeah.

Those are great times. Yeah. We had fun. Yeah. Now I got a boring job at a bus station. No. Where people once a week, you know what I mean? Like or at least threaten me.

Yeah. You know, or man. Yeah. I I think we we could probably wrap it up. Yeah. You know, it was just it's just obviously so much in these books. And if you if you don't have them, figure out how to get them. Yeah.

Go to Ly's. Yeah. Yeah. Go to Ly's. He's got them. And he's got signed editions. Yeah. I was so stoked when I reopened mine today.

It said to Austin and this really squiggly script and everything, you know. I'm like, I forgot that I got them all directly from him and signed from the shows and stuff. So, yeah. And he he probably has five and six. Yeah, I don't have any more of seven, but I might have a five or six stashed away. I might, Dude, if you have them, I will get I'll get them. I might dig through my books over there and see if Let me know. 100% would get a hold of cuz cuz I work one day a week in the neighborhood.

Now, I want you to sign them, too. Well, you had to have signed them. I think I signed them for um I'll I'll dig around in my house and see if I can find you five and six. Okay. I know I've got six. I probably got a five. Excited. Yeah, I'll look for signed ones.

And then if people want to get the audios, they go to Spotify. Yeah, I got I got one and two up there. Okay. Are those other ones coming or no? Yeah. I I kind of want to wait until Yeah. the hit the hit list just kind of happens. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, no one sues me. Okay. Okay. You know, it's not like a bus driver has great assets, but I don't want anyone to take my pension. You know, I don't want to work 20 years at a bus station for some [ __ ] to come and take my my 500 bucks a month. Well, you know, right now Eddie is is just watching.

He's watching with the biggest [ __ ] eatating [ __ ] grin. Yeah. That's amazing that again he's he's got this story out there like no other tattooer does. And if any if any tattooer from yester year has the opportunity of being recognized in the future, it's because of these books. And it'll be Eddie. Yeah. And he talked about everybody in those books. Yes.

Yes. Everybody he didn't like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the people he liked and everything. I mean like he like cuz at that time there was only 300 tattooers on the globe, right?

It's so wild, right? And now there's probably 300 on this block. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. 300 tattooers on the globe. And that's what Doc was saying. Like Eddie wanted to get into the supply business.

Who are you gonna supply? Right. Why? 300 people, right? What a niche market, right? And now I mean your clientele must be international. Yeah. Yeah.

It's wild. Yeah. You just need to get That's just the tiniest tin of it. He had a supply business at a time when tattooers were self-sufficient, too. Yeah. So, he had a very very small part of that, right? Yeah. And I hear his green ink was amazing.

That's what everyone says. Like the of the old-timers, Eddie's Green Ink was amazing. Everything that they were putting out was groundbreaking. The machines that Nationals put out, the inks that Nationals put out, they came up with the homog I don't know if it was before I think it was his time that the homogenized inks came out. So, he probably was, you know, the guy who spearheaded the homogenized inks. It was just constant. Everything was better. Nationals was the [ __ ] Yeah.

You know, you had a nationals machine or you didn't have a nationals machine. Yeah. They were innovators. And then then when when United came out, it was the same thing. Everything was of of better quality than it was with with Nationals. Yeah. Yeah. That was the first machine that I had to put together.

Oh, United. Yeah. They were a trip because the collet was a different size. You had to use his tubes for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, the national swing gate.

I think I Is that it hanging right there? I ground off the chrome. The one hanging. Yeah, that's a swing gate. So, that was it. I custom made little star stickers on it. Awesome. [ __ ] nice.

But it was used to be chrome, but I wanted to look more old school, so we ground off the [ __ ] chrome. Yeah, there's a couple Paco Rollins right there from like 04, dude. I saw somebody restoring Paco Rollins machines. I thought was really cool. And they're now considered vintage. Yeah, I think I have three of them or four. I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He came in. He signed my name on it and the date he made those which is kind of cool. I think he is. I'm pretty sure he still builds. He's out of Seattle, right? Yeah.

I don't remember. I just remember him traveling through town. Yeah. " And when we would drive, he wouldn't say anything. Then we get to a town. Oh, this was uh Bill Collins area, you know. And like I said, why don't you mention him in this? He's like, there was nobody else.

Yeah. You could drive for 300 miles and there wasn't a tattoo shop. Imagine imagine what that must have been like, right? All of that hit all of that. All the relationships that he built up and everything were just for [ __ ] physically being there. It's not like he wrote letters or slid into the DMs. I just love that it was it was all genuinely cuz he was getting out there and like traveling and introducing himself face to face. I love I just love that part.

I don't know. And and and some of the names like Chop Up Charlie. Yeah. Out of out of Baltimore. Yeah. " And he [ __ ] remembers them all. Like Yeah. Like his mind never really went at the end, right?

He was trap. Yeah. He was a steel trap. That's steel trap. Just a smart dude, man. Yeah. Remembered everything. Yeah.

You know, see, I have to do things like this because I'll forget everything, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Me, too. I just got to keep keep documenting. I remember at your house where your one of your house parties, Eddie, and I standing in the living room talking for a long, long time.

And I thought, how many cocktails has he had? Look you in the eye and talk so clearly and remember all he was telling me stories like crazy. I was like, he seemed totally loose. It was it was really uh interesting to watch somebody like And he was pretty old by then. I mean 72 is when we he was 72 years old when we started the project. Wow. Really? Wow.

Yeah. He was 72. Okay. Yeah. And then he passed it when he was 80. Okay. Yeah. So it was eight years, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. " You know what I mean? Like he he some catchy ass lines too. He did he did quick singers. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. Yeah.

[ __ ] Well, [ __ ] Philly. Close it out. Wow, dude. Thanks so much for coming. Like, this is really fun. We got a new set here today. Um, we're doing a nighttime thing, so we got a little cocktails in us and stuff, but uh, and this was fun. This is really great and very special to me.

I just greatly appreciate you guys. And I I appreciate you. It's so fun, man. I I appreciate Thank you. Cuz like no one ever talks to me about these books or anything. You put so much time and energy and effort and I know you you put your heart and everything you've got into it and I and I just I [ __ ] love it, dude. Thank you. Yeah.

I love I love our stories that we have together. We got to travel, man. We did. We really got to travel and and rub elbows with these guys. Yeah. Yeah. We're so lucky to have known these guys. Yeah.

So lucky to have known these guys. Really special, man. So I I personally want to see you do more. Well, we'll see. We'll see what we'll see. Maybe not. Yeah. You I mean, you've got so much information about Stan, too, or like anybody else.

I just I love that you you did this. It's really cool. Special project. This is pretty much probably what my life's work is going to be. Yeah. If I walk away from writing having done this, I'm happy. That's pretty special. Um, you know, now I write in a journal every day and Yeah.

write down some of the crazy bus [ __ ] you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe we can do more talking. Oh, boy. Retired from that job. That'll make this look mild. Yeah.

So, [ __ ] it, guys. Like, thank you so much for taking the time to be here, Philly. I love you. Good to see you, Charlie. Yeah, we got we got my dad on the on the mic in the back off set. He snuck in there. Um, yeah, dude. Don't forget to support your tattooers, man.

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, get out there and research and educate yourself on whatever it is that you're in love with or whatever part of tattooing that you're in love with. Just get into it, man. And just consume yourself in it. It's a It's a beautiful, beautiful culture and it fantastic group of people and I've made some of my best buds and longtime friends and um, through it and I love it more than anything. So yeah. Um, thanks for tuning in, guys.

Peace out. Have a good one. Local tattooer. Thank you guys.

Over the years, we have actually learned a lot from great business owners and operators. There's no better way to learn how to run a company than from other people that are truly living it and doing it every day. Anybody going out in pursuit of income that's going to spend money to try and earn money as a business, I think should have an LLC. But it's not even for a tax reason. It's mainly for the liability purpose. Like, let's be honest here. If you get sued cuz you're 4 months into a venture and something goes wrong, you just ideally want to have some wall between your personal assets and the business that's actually operating. You are the only person that can control the outcome of what it's going to look like when you're 70.

[music] All right. What's happening? This is Austin from Maverick Supply Co. Today we're here in the warehouse hanging out with two highly intelligent some peoples. Some my peoples. One happens to be my wife. She's a finance. Can [laughter] I call you an expert?

Megan Comfort. Yeah. Semi and Matt von Treger the tax man. Do they call you that in the streets or what? No. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

No [laughter] good nicknames. No good names. They might not. I never got a cool touch. You said you got noticed at UNLV. They're like you're the tax guy. I have. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. The tax guy usually is is something like that. Yeah. The guy online that talks taxes. Yeah. So [ __ ] we're going to get down to it today. We're going to just kind of basically break down some structures for you as a tattooer to help you out understand business structures, taxes, all sorts of all the fun stuff that we as artists most likely and generally don't like.

Um, so let's try to make it fun and have a good time. Megan, my beautiful wife, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself? Uh, I like being on your podcast. You say nice things in front of me. [laughter] Like this is cool. Um, no. So, um I'm married to Austin Spencer, of course. Um but I've been in banking actually for 22 years, specifically in the small business realm.

So, I love it because I get to help so many different small businesses and I get to see great operators and I get to see people that aren't so great um and really kind of use that information with my finance background to kind of help and guide them. So over the years we have actually learned a lot from great business owners and operators. I myself have a podcast called Through the Door, the insiders perspective on running a business and it's specifically about that. It's about learning from other entrepreneurs. There's no better way to learn how to run a company than from other people that are truly living it and doing it every day. Um so that's kind of a little bit about my background. I specialize in small business finance. So that's the government guaranteed style lending.

It's called SBA financing and then really just any small business type financing which is one of the reasons why I've met Matt and we share the same mission which is trying to get clean books for every small business. Um hopefully you know you guys will help champion that our endeavor. Uh but yeah, Matt, go ahead. My name is Matt Matt Bontriger. I'm a CPA. [snorts] Um let me see. I'm 33 and I've been in practice now in tax and accounting for I graduated school in 2014. I feel like I'm one of the 10 that was born and raised in Vegas and I'm still here.

I feel like everybody's leaving the heat, but which I would say I'm probably ready to too. These summers have been brutal. [laughter] Um, but I tried to play college baseball. Thought I'd be a pro baseball player and that obviously did not work. And then I stuck in school, stayed with accounting, and now I really love the profession because it is I think it's the language of business. And you start to realize that even though I'm new to running a business, I've ran my firm for 5 years, is you start to learn some of these basic principles that are so easy to understand, but when you meet a business owner that's been running a business for 10 to 20 years, they just never took the time to understand that stuff. And so once once they do, they obviously take off and are at a different level.

So, I like Megan share this um goal of helping small business owners more so from a tax perspective now, helping them save money on their taxes. But I started off before tax in accounting. And you know, when you're a a grad student or, you know, an accounting student, they make you pick between audit and tax. I started in audit, realized that you're kind of the bad guy in audit. " So now I'm in tax. But but I do love that you have an audit background and I think it's made me a better tax person for yourself. It teaches you a lot about things you see that people maybe do wrong or like problems that it's like oh well that's what happened and that's kind of how it started them down this path. Yeah.

You understand how to look at stuff from more of like a you know less than a surface level really dive deep and see see what's going on in a business. So I like it from that perspective that it's really helped me become a better accountant. But yeah, tax is where everybody you're you're everybody's boy when you do tax cuz you're you're there to save a money. So yeah, I run a firm called True Books and we've been doing this for 5 years. Uh quit my job in 2019. I like I you know my son was 6 months old at the time so I was pretty scared but the longest position I've ever had is my own firm. If you look at my LinkedIn every year and a half Matt's bouncing, Matt's going somewhere else. But now for the last 5 years I've ran my own thing.

I think like one of the key important things you said you just mentioned was that you're a CPA which is certified public accountant and growing up in tattooing I always had everybody always just telling me that their friends doing their taxes are these random people and like the CPA is a very important part right of what you do and that's different than an accountant. It's different than your aunt who does books. Yes. Is there any important thing that you want to like share with us of like why we should specifically go to a CPA versus anybody under or Yeah, I really think it's it's the licensing. So, specifically, right, it's a license that I hold means I had to go to school for so long. It means I had to take certain tests. There's another designation called an EA, which is an enrolled agent that's issued by the IRS.

And I think the importance of working with somebody that has credentials, it just shows that they're sort of married to the profession, right? like I'm here and I've tried to earn the degree or the status at the highest level. So, it shows that I'm there as a professional to help you. What I will say though, where I love to hear, oh, my aunt does this or my sister does this, is bookkeeping. Cuz I think that I want to solve bad bookkeeping, like it's world hunger. That's what me and Megan really share is these business owners just have no clue how bad things are until they get somebody in there that does a good job. And so, but it's very common though to have your stay-at-home mom or someone's sister, someone's cousin, brother to run the books from home.

And I think that that can be done. But when it comes to doing your taxes uh and tax planning, I think you need somebody licensed so that you know you're getting a good job done and your license basically hold sorry. Yeah. Holds you, you know, reli you're liable for doing it legally. I'm under a governing body. Well, and you have to represent them typically in the form [clears throat] of an audit. But it's the continuing education that I think is important with CPA. Like every year you're getting hours because you're learning cuz tax change quite frequently sometimes and there's benefits and advantages and things that you want to be able to take advantage of.

A CPA is required to make sure that they're actually fulfilling those educational hours so that they continue to be up to speed on the latest and greatest things that are obviously going to help their clients. So if you aren't working with someone like that or you are just kind of dumping like prepared books by someone who doesn't understand finance on the desk of a CPA or an accountant and saying like [snorts] file you will be very upset over sometimes the outcome or things that might come out of it right just because of the sheer fact that they haven't helped you do the bookkeeping properly. They can't do it quickly. They have to actually ask you a lot of questions. So, it's a lot more work on your end. You don't necessarily have time to do it.

That's typically what I see is that people are like, "I don't have time to file my taxes or do this. " And then they're in the same boat come September because they haven't actually like made it part of their business practice, if you will, to make sure that you're doing it. They're about 6 months behind in that scenario that you said where, hey, I'm just going to extend my taxes. So that means come, okay, you bought yourself six months. Come September, October, you should already be talking about the upcoming year, but they're already dealing with or still dealing with the prior year. So it is that shift of, you know, hey, I need to get off of the extension, make sure that come November, December, I'm working on my business, getting the numbers together.

Um, and that's one of the things that we, you know, we've chatted a lot about is it's going to cost the business much more money and time and headache if they wait. " But I'm like, I get it. It's, you know, let's call it 5 6 7 8 grand a year. " You're going to be in a panic and it's going to cost you more money. Yeah. Well, and not only that, if you're not doing like we always set aside time, I try to talk to him about it and he just kind of glazes over a little bit. You're the operator. He cares.

[laughter] He's the operator. Yeah. He truly cares. I'm like I still tell him I don't like to be late on [ __ ] [laughter] This is what is happening. What do you think? " Reverse. Yeah. Tell me.

Um but it is interesting when like for tax planning, people don't even think you need runway to really make a difference on what your tax obligation would be. " I always say like do it in like September, October time frame. At least then you kind of have an idea of how you're going to end the year. you know, it's only a couple months left. And then you can really have a good conversation and then figure out, you have a several months to figure out like, okay, do I need to save up some money and spend it before year end? Do I need to adjust how much I'm paying myself in compens compensation with W2 versus how much I've been taking in distributions? So that when you go to file, you already know before end of year how much you're expected to pay.

And now you have 3 months, you know, or however long to save up to be able to to make that payment to the IRS. You know, that kind of I brings up kind of a cool idea. Uh if you know, from a tattoo's perspective, we're busy. We're drawing, we're tattooing all day long, then we're drawing at night. Is there an idea of um like kind of like a schedule or something that we could maybe try to apply to a lot time once a week that we gather all our receipts or anything like that? I don't, you know, my thing is quarterly cuz like I we run our businesses, you know, together and I have a CPA that does everything. Obviously, you know who my CPA is, even though I forgot who you um but it's I like they do the bookkeeping and everything. They close out the books every month and they give them to me within the first two weeks of the month.

Yes, that is a mandatory requirement that we negotiated and agreed upon because that's another important thing. Like a CPA and other bookkeeping services are also busy if you don't actually set that expectation cuz sometimes there's some unexplained adjustments or things that they need your feedback on to close out, right? And so if you're not getting back to them, then they're not getting closed out and now it's however many month Yeah, exactly. However many months. So that is always so I know first week of the month I'm looking for an email from the bookkeeper because I'm like okay they're going to be asking me at least a handful of transactions and I already kind of know what they are right cuz I'm also looking at our bank accounts and everything we spend our money on like a fine tooth comb which and when you're saying transactions like where like this this charge on the credit card goes into what file stuff [clears throat] yeah I mean sometimes Austin does use the a wrong card and defense happens extremely frustrating is what we [laughter] call it on accident.

He's a co-mingler. He's like, "Look at these cards. " And I'm like, "You're [laughter] you're right. That is actually Yeah. " Like, I don't know. Literally, every single card in our [ __ ] I wish we could. I should. But that's a good point.

[laughter] Just I should tape them. No, we should. I can just put tape. Get a cricket and put a Yeah, put a label on. You gave me a great idea. I'm like, "Use the green one. " Yeah. Yeah.

All right. I'm going to do that now. But just as you said though, see, I don't even think it's a frequency of weekly because you're right. I wonder what quarter like, you know, specifically tattoo artists are more busy and things like that, but it is a monthly thing. We do the same thing with our clients by the 10th of every month, we want to give them the following month's financials. " And we, you know, they tell us and we categorize it. And then I think the action item is reviewing that set of financials that comes to them because the worst part is is if you don't get back to them on those items, like I always tell clients is like, hey, if we're if you didn't get your financials, it's your fault. We're we're likely waiting on you for something cuz my team has bugged you to get what we need.

But the worst part is is if you don't get them what they need, you're still going to get charged every month cuz they're still doing the rest of the work, but you're never going to get an actual close to where you can look at your financial statements. Soon you get to the end of the year, you've paid for bookkeeping, but it's kind of asked cuz then not hasn't been done. And then it comes like November, December, and you're like, "Where's my numbers? " So, it is this once you fall behind, you can quickly fall behind and kind of fall off the as an artist. You forget anything and everything. You can't find stressful. It's stressful cuz now you've dug a hole and you got to dig your way out of it. And that's why maintaining it regularly is so important.

Not only that, I like looking at the numbers because I like to see how are we performing, right? How are we performing to last year? It helps me understand, do we need to have a different conversation about strategy and moving forward? Do we have to have more preparation because this slow period is going to last a little bit longer and we need to really understand the game plan to ensure that we are going to be around when the rebound happens, right? when people start feeling better about their situation and consumer spending is is up cuz right now like it's down and a lot of times people don't look at any of the symptoms that are kind of happening. It's just like I'm sick now and now I just got to deal with it rather than being like oh I'm starting to not feel well.

What are the preventative things I can do so that I feel better so that I can keep moving forward with my life? And it's the same thing like we do it in different areas. But I do agree that I think finance and financials there's two things that come to mind like with a lot of business owners and even tattooers. Number the first one is like where do I start and how do I find a good one? Like what would be something that you would tell them to look for to say like oh I found a good one. Yes. because they I we've heard some horror stories from other tattooers that are like, "Yeah, I I got someone they were a CPA, but like they go they never talked to me. They they never reached out.

" That's one of Yeah, that is one of the two things I leave. And and I'm like, I know that that's hard, but that's why I'm like, not every professional is created equal. And you really do have to It's like a Tinder date. You know what I mean? Like you got to find the right person that is invested in your success and that actually cares about you as a client. Yeah. You're going to spend a lot of time talking to them about sensitive [ __ ] you know? So, like find somebody that you can bounce things back on and forth.

You're not intimidated to ask questions that will take the time to explain and walk you through things cuz these things are incredibly difficult for somebody that doesn't spend a lot of time in there. Even just responsibilities is also wildly important. talking about that I noticed that clients don't oh they're just like oh yeah you're my CPA therefore it's your job to reach out to me and tell me what I need to be doing and it's like no it actually isn't right it's like you we need to set those roles and responsibilities together so that you can understand this is actually what I do for you but this is what I need you to do in order for me to help you like help me help you situation you bring up a good example so the other today. Well, first, when you're trying to find a good professional, I would say ask your friends and family first cuz you want somebody in network and but two is I feel like prospects are scared to ask questions like it is a Tinder date because either it's a they're not licensed and you're talking to the person that's licensed and you're assuming that they know everything.

" Yeah. So now settling into a prospect or a scoping call cuz I'm like let's really get to know each other and what I'm going to do and what you're going to do because what it leads me to think is the other day I'm still very involved in my business. I mean we're we have about 30 employees. We did three and a half million last last year. So it's pretty goodized firm. But we had a client leave us a one-star review on Google and I'm on this morning walking. I'm [ __ ] pissed. So immediately asking rude to this guy, you just hammered me for a one-star review for something I don't even do for you.

But in your world of accounting and tax, I'm your guy. I do everything because I'm your accountant. But I'm like, this is for a payroll problem for bookkeeping. Dude, I'm not even engaged to do your bookkeeping. I'm not engaged to do your payroll. I would love to, but what's my incentive now when you just whack me with a one star for something I don't do? So, it really thinks you or it makes me think to go back is you could never overset an expectation with a client in helping them say, hey, this is what I'm going to do for you. This is what you have to do on your own cuz it also gives them the chance to tell you, I don't want to do that.

Can you do this for me? And then it's more money for you as the provider. So, well, and it just sets common ground. I that happens a lot even in my world in banking where they're like, well, I bank with you. just pull my bank statements up. You can see how much money I'm making. You can see how much money I run through your bank. And I'm like, I can't tell you how much that does.

That is not what I'm talking about. And it is not my responsibility to be looking through your bank statements and compiling a P&L for you. It is your responsibility. And not only that, you should because it does help you strategically plan. Like I can't remember which guest I had on my podcast, but they said something like don't just work on like for your business, work on your business. Yeah. " like you don't even know if you can do it because you haven't been paying attention to any of the financials or the aspects that are honestly most important to really move the needle for long-term like longevity and wealth generation because that's what to me the value the investment that you pay of that 450 or 900 a month you know whatever it is it's truly an investment in your long-term future as an individual that's going to age out and get old Yeah, we started going into this last night and is [clears throat] going to need something to fall back on and live on because you are the only person that can control the outcome of what it's going to look like when you're 70.

Like, I think about that. You don't want to be in the chair when you're 80 or 90, you know? Yeah. I've only been tattooing for 25 years, which is a long ass time in the in our world of tattooing. And not too many people really are in that like I don't know what do you call it? you know, the extent of time of I've tattooed, but so I don't know. One piece of advice I can ask everybody to do is to invest in this [ __ ] Make sure you're Well, we're going to start getting into finance stuff, too, and savings and all that and tax structure. But, um, just, dude, don't think that you're just always going to be able to tattoo forever and spend all your money on your new Lexus or whatever you got.

Well, you probably don't want to tattoo forever. And I find it so completely different in the sense of your dayto-day talking to vendors and clients and moving things around and she's checking you know the all the financials. I would like to see where it's probably interesting for you at some points to be 60 90 days throughout the business and then you look at financials and see like so I always call this the gut check test like if the financials mirror what you just felt for the last 90 days within the business and sometimes they don't sometimes they do and so it can be like well hey where's this cash? Oh, why was revenue so high here? And it's it's always interesting to see those two dynamics come together because the time is spent differently dayto-day.

It has to be. You can't run the business with one person doing both. And bottom line, I I just realized that after like 20 years of your back and your neck and everything is going here. And if you just did that on your own and you didn't build a another business on the side or uh an actual tattoo shop or something that has revenue coming in that can help you like if you do get into a car accident or you do have a newborn and you need to not be at work as much all these different Yeah, flexibility. That story you told me about the building. Yeah, with the girl yesterday. That was amazing. Yeah, that's actually a sponsored artist.

I was telling him like she does vlogs on her Instagram. Casey, I think it's Casey uh Oh, Kelsey Colors. Kelsey. Thank you. Kelsey Colors. Super cool story. Yes. And I love her vlog that she did about what what was possible and how lining up with a good banker, a good CPA, like all these professionals that really took the time to explain to her how she could achieve different things.

Like it just really opened her eyes up to possibility and like what she's creating outside of tattooing, which I think is so phenomenal. And that isn't a unique story to her. That's something that many people can do. But you do have to you have to be looking forward. That's why I love finance so much. So I tried to go into accounting, but accounting was not my world. I didn't like looking back, right? I like it's nice to look back and understand.

And I do agree it's completely the language of business. But me, I'm a fin forward thinker. I like looking at the future and doing proformas and projections and being like, can is this possible? Is this feasible? Is it achievable? like what tests and things do we need to do to understand the market and that's how we approach every business we start before we start it what's the initial investment in capital what is my overall return on that investment how quickly is it going to be ramped up and then what's my target break even point that I actually have to hit and then how much do I actually have to do to be like cash flowing like free rolling good money right that we can then take and multiply into something else and it's it's that for me it's that simple and I love doing those things.

I nerd out on that stuff. Right. Meanwhile, I'm over there in the other room about textures and colors and how this makes people feel and the experience of the whole entire thing and how to build community and bring people together, which is they're all incredibly important, but without the finance side, you're like, it's just going to be a But you don't have to marry a finance. You do have to marry, if you will, professionally, someone that can actually help you with those things. So that kind of brings me to the entity structure cuz we're totally kind of going off some tangent. Well, no, but they're fun. They're fun tangents. But so there's different types of operators in the tattoo world.

I'm just going to name like some of the simple ones or maybe you want to tell us like what entity types you think would be good for those people to set up. Yeah. What's your first scenario? I would say first scenario uh not an employee, you know. Uh so basically you a well what we have so what do we have commission you jump into the industry you're newer you're in a shop that you need to feed you uh not even rental just a split commission it's an independent contract you get Yeah. So the shop gets a piece of whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then our responsibility as a shop owners to help feed you, nurture you, keep you all in hopefully grow and move on to maybe next position would be like booth rental where you come in and you collect all of your cash, but you just pay rent to the house. And then from there, you would jump into shop owner uh commission or rental and then hopefully move up to somebody that owns the building that the business is in. You know, those are kind of like our basic structures. Well, let's start with one. Go ahead. You just [laughter] need five. Well, I was just giving you all the levels there.

Yeah. The solo. So, if you're newer, you're on sort of a commission split, my advice there is anybody going out in pursuit of income that's going to spend money to try and earn money as a business, I think should have an LLC. Okay. Really, but it's not even for a tax reason. It's mainly for the liability purpose. Like, let's be honest here. If you get sued cuz you're 4 months into a venture and something goes wrong, you just ideally want to have some wall between your personal assets and the business that's act, you know, actually operating.

But, you know, if somebody wants to go at it without one, that's fine. You're just basically considered a sole proprietor. But if you ask me for the person that's sort of on a commission split, they're new to the industry. they just spent two grand on supplies and a class, whatever it is. I would have a simple LLC and you will file as a single member LLC, which we're getting a little nerdy here, but on your tax return is literally just a schedule C. It's another form. You don't file a separate tax return. And that that's how I would keep it very simple.

The sole proprietor would be just based on your acting as Exactly. you acting as your which opens you up to liability. Let's talk about that a little bit cuz I do see a lot of people do single member LLC's and they put it on their so it's basically almost looks like a sole proprietor but the top of the form literally says but it is actually an entity. How do you ensure that you actually create a protection of liability there? Like and I'm speaking about comingling because that's the common mistake that I see. That's where people go wrong and literally shoot that take a gun shoot yourself in the big toe. That's what people are doing when they do that because you're just setting yourself up for failure in the event that something goes wrong.

But comingling, which is Yeah. So, right, you're using business assets to pay for personal stuff. You're you're out and you're using your personal credit card to pay for business things. " And then bring it back to me. But also like you, let's say you get sued. Like this is how we go down the path of bad. Yeah. You get sued.

You know, someone catches on that you're comingling or you It's the first thing that they'll probably try to attack cuz you're a small unorganized business is, hey, if they can prove that you're really using your personal piggy bank to fund this business or the business's bank to really fund your personal life and there's no delineation, then you can potentially lose the protection of what that LLC was even there to do. Yeah. So then they are suing you sense of security. A lot of people do that. " But then they don't follow the rules of separating. Yeah. Which would mean two completely separate accounts. You pay out of one account.

Yeah. Or they pay everything out of their personal account and they just transfer said that. Yes. " Like because then that protection goes away. Here's exactly what I would do. You'd get an LLC in the state that you're in and then you'd get an EIN, which is an employer identification number. The joke is when like people come to me and they're like, "Hey, I just got my EIN. " Cuz that [ __ ] is free.

You don't have to pay anybody to get an EIN. You go straight to the IRS website. You get it. So, that's where you get your LLC, your EIN. Then, you go get a bank account. The bank is going to ask for those two documents, your EIN, and your LLC paperwork. Once you get your bank account, you're about done. The only other thing I would do further is get a credit card like a small business credit card.

So once you've done those four things, LLC, EIN, bank account, credit card, all income and all expenses go in and out of that credit card and bank account. And as you need money as the business owner, if you need five grand, just rip five grand from the business to your personal account, call it a day. That's totally fine. Where it goes bad is you're like out to dinner and you use your business card to pay for it when it wasn't business. or you're out and you buy some vans and you use your business card to pay for them. That's where [ __ ] starts to go wonky and then you're losing the organization and and and the like pulled five grand. I mean, so is that's then later considered a draw, right? Basically.

Yes. Cuz think about if your business made 50 grand and you add 10 grand of expenses and you net 40. Yep. If you rip yourself 10, some people think like that's a deduction and now your business only made 30, but it's not. When you're a sole proprietor, all of the net income is yours. You don't, unless you have employees, you start paying contractors and employees, pay them from the business 100%. Take it as a deduction. But all we care about is keeping track of your income and expenses in a separate account.

And I'm telling you, if you can do that, you are eight out of 10 steps done. Cuz then someone else can come in really easy, reconcile it, categorize it, make it a little bit prettier. But if you can get at least that, you're in a really good spot. Really good. And not only that, there are there are programs and stuff now even in banking. Like every bank has this where it's like we call it auto. Yeah. So it does actually take your bank statement and reconcile it into a P&L based on the transactions of the ins [clears throat] and outs that are happening which is honestly even if you are even just doing that that is 10 times better than what yes very helpful cuz at least it's in the format that it needs to be in and you could quickly kind of eyeball and gut check if you know you're [snorts] moving in the right way.

So that whole structure is based on and the ones that I mentioned are just like if I was doing everything myself as this tattooer. But bottom line that's pretty rare. Partnerships are crazy in tattooing and everybody seems to do everything with partnerships and whether they're a handshake or not. Like maybe we could talk a little bit about we, you know, we talked about the importance of that is like when you and your two buds all of a sudden decide to leave that shop and you guys are going to go open up your own shop and just put, you know, who's going to sign the lease or are we all going to be on the lease and who's going are we actually going to do a bank account or is it just going to be super casual and one guy puts his name on the lease and then everybody else just cuts them, you know, 400 bucks for their portion of the rent.

Yeah, dude. Like I watch so many not only do the partnerships just get messy and most all partnerships they will get messy at some point in time. I just I I just cringe when I watch everybody just so quickly do this. I've done it myself in so many different scenarios and I've lost friendships over it or whatever. But I don't know. So like say two or three people decide to go out. What's like the best way that they can approach opening a tattoo shop and whatever whatever structure it might be. So, this could get a little crazy, but at it at its most simplest form of if you're going to have partners involved, still you go LLC and then you'll have multiple members of that LLC.

So, let's just say you open up a tattoo shop, A, B, C, partners A, B, and C. There's three of them. The easiest way is obviously once you guys discuss what your splits are, cuz let's be honest, A's going to bring 50 grand cash. B is going to bring 100 grand cash. C's broke, but he's got up to he's the best tattooer of all three of them. Yeah. Yeah. I like this.

how [ __ ] works. Like one of them's really good, two of them got money, mom gave him some money to start a shop. And so thinking, that's what I do like about partnerships and tax is you can get so crazy with the allocations. And I was in a partnership when I started my firm in 2020, bought him out in 2023. " Yeah. This person. So really thinking through these partnerships when you get together and understand like being cool with one another the way that you are when you start it. You have to be able to have the candid conversation of like what happens when he's mad and wants his 50 grand back.

What happens when this guy starts to want more money? So thinking through and it's like cliche, but thinking through how you're going to break up is very important upfront in a partnership because if you get there you need to understand what the rules are that you guys are going to follow to break up and what you guys think is equitable. So um but again sort of core level is LLC you guys are all members of the LLC and then what happens in the tax world is you guys will file think of it as that that unit that business will file a tax return and you each will get a piece of the pie for your respective share. You can get a little quirky on once the business is making enough money that you each should have your own LLC's individually that own your interest in the tattoo shop.

So like the entity structure can get a little bit more complex and that's now we're getting into tax strategy. That's to save you some money. But up front though when it allocations you have to think about how you're going to wind it down. You have to and if you don't it's one of those things where like now I have kids and I watch my kids like you're just being silly and this is not going to happen in the next 20 minutes. But you have to almost treat adults like that and it's like you guys have to think about how this is going to go bad. I love how you thought about how it's going to go great. And that's good because you're going to operate on that for the first so much time, but at some point someone will want out. Someone will want more money.

And that's a that is a red flag if you are with a group of friends and they can't have that conversation. Huge. And the story that we all tell ourselves on, oh well, I'm not going to talk about it cuz we've known each other for a long time. I think they know where my place is. Like I think they understand. I think they know. and like I don't know, I trust them. I've known them for a long time.

And it's not it has nothing to do with that. That's what sometimes bothers me about conversations about those things cuz me I have no problem having a conversation about like let's go through let's walk through these scenarios. I find it so interesting when people get emotionally upset over just the hypotheticals. Honestly, it takes me back a little cuz I'm like this hasn't even happened. [laughter] We're just You're storytelling. We are literally It's like It's like when I get mad at you and you cheat on me in my dream, you know? It's Or when you have too much to keep. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. [laughter] It's very much like that. Yeah. Totally. Like this hasn't really happened. This isn't real. So why are we why are we getting upset over this conversation?

For me, that is like that's a signal. That's a signal that you really need to be thinking about. I'm going to raise my hands for all the artists out there that are all emotionally driven and connected with their art and that's all they do is act on emotion and inspiration. So doing this as an exercise would definitely be pretty interesting to do and it's just it saves your friendship totally and it and it secures the success that you all at the end of the day truly want. So in the your in the scenario that we have where one guy is just the best tattooer, right? and the other guys have different varying levels of money. That contribution is entirely different for every single person. All are important though, right?

And so it's very you couldn't do it with all three of you without all three of you. So it's like find out what is most important and what's the biggest fear of each person so that you can then address that. You can curate an operating agreement that actually accounts for that cuz that's a legal document that if [ __ ] hit the fan then yes, you can you'll dust that off because that's literally what an operating agreement does. You just put it somewhere safe and then you pull it out when you're like I don't know what did we decide or agree upon like I need to look at that and that's the governing document. So it's like it's in writing and it makes people feel it's honestly a sense of security for everyone for sure. you don't let resentment build up or these, you know, you thought through it.

Yeah. These made up thoughts and stuff beforehand, those things you'll always have that that ease in you in in the long run when you're going through tough times or Mhm. It makes me think too with like you said like they get so emotional. That's almost a good thing because what you have to think about is let's say hey A, B, and C, we're 3 and 1/2 years in the business has 400,000 in cash in it and you guys own a building. It's good because then at that point, hey, A, B, and C, if you guys were to split at that point, who wants what? Who thinks they're entitled to what? And that's really what you're trying to split up is the cash and the assets of what the business has generated. Everybody's going to leave with their own skill sets.

That's, you know, that that's easy, but it's, hey, if this thing grows to XYZ, what do you guys want to split? What do you think is equitable? And so sometimes, you know, it's easy like once you lay it out that way, it's easy. Well, hey, I want a third of the cash cuz I'm a third of a partner. Well, what about the guy that put in 100 grand and you put in zero? Yeah. Is he entitled to more? So, it's already good that you start to have those conversations now because you have to brace yourself for them to happen eventually.

You're not going to be partners for life. If you are, great. But you have to think about the breakup. So, in that concept, I love that you talk about like eventually you would want to do an LLC. Each person do an LLC, right? That owns their interest. And I love that concept just because so many professionals actually do that. Like attorneys that get together, they do that.

doctors that get together, they do that. Yeah. Other professionals and tattooing is a profession. You guys are all professionals. That needs to be kind of translated into this industry and treated the same way because it does give ultimately not only the main company benefits, but also all of you guys independent benefits based on your own personal tax strategy on how you want to treat it. That's why all of these investments of spending the money to create entities and make sure that you have that separation and you invest in a CPA, I say investment and not just a cost, right? That means nothing because it truly is an investment into securing a future long-term for yourself and your family. So, when we talk about those scenarios, tell us the difference between because even with an LLC, there's different designations, right?

There isn't an LLC tax return. It's there's four of them. Yep. Can you go through those and what is the optimal for a partnership when you know that their contribution to the business is going to be different? Yep. Yeah. So, cuz it is very similar, right, as far as professionals. You guys are out, you're earning a fee for services being done.

We're all in the service based business. So, when you set up an LLC, the IRS knows nothing about it until you get an EIN. When you get an EIN, you're kind of telling the IRS, hey, this is how I want to treat this LLC for tax purposes. So, when you set up an LLC, you can be taxed as a single member LLC, which is very similar as a sole proprietor. You can be taxed as an S corporation, which is what most tattooers are going to want to do, even if they're commission, you've started to rent a booth. But the break even here for an escorp is once your business starts to net about 50 grand. You'd want to talk to somebody about like, hey, I've heard this term. I think this would apply to me, and that's an S corporation.

Then you can be taxed as a partnership or you can be taxed as a CC corp. So, this is where LLC is just the legal entity that you are setting up. You ultimately have to tell the IRS kind of what badge you want your LLC to use. And so, most of the time for service-based businesses, you're going to start as an LLC, single member. Really, you're just like a chameleon. It goes on your personal tax return. Once you start to make some money, no matter what your pay compensation is, like let's say your booth versus commission is once you hit that 50 grand threshold, you want to talk about being an escorp. That's when you would file a separate tax return.

You'd start to pay yourself payroll. That's when you're sort of leveling up in the sense of there's some logistical things that you have to sit down and talk to with your accountant because if you don't, you're just going to be ultimately mad at the accountant because you're going to be confused later. So, it's like know that you're going into class and you're going to spend 3 hours of a good conversation and you're probably going to forget it in 28 days and that's fine, but at least you got it out of your system to understand at that point what it is now you're moving into because as you know, business gets more complex. And so I think right again I point to you from your side of you're the creative, you're the operator. That's kind of what I was when I started this business.

Now I'm back to this sort of overlord of looking at the financials and how the pieces are moving because someone has to sit in that role. But it's it's good because hey, have the enthusiasm and go into the business and look at everything that you need to to run it, but you need to be able to step aside and take 5 10 hours to be like, okay, my business hats on now. What do I need to do and what do I need to do best to set myself up for the next 10, 20, 30 years? Yeah. So, [clears throat] but an escorp in my mind and you I would want you to correct me if this is wrong. ESCORPs are really good for like a 100% individual. Yeah. I wouldn't go into a deal with multiple people on an escort because And can you explain the important factor with that and why if you're going in with multiple people that really should be set up like a partnership?

Yep. The main reason. So, let's just take my business. My business was a 5149. And let's just say, so if you're a 5149, 60/40, if you are an SC corporation, which is technically a corporation, 5149, the ownership breakdown. Exactly. Was the ownership breakdown? I'm sorry.

Yes. Exactly. So, let's just say ownership breakdown is 5149 or 640. They think it's a tax form. What is the 5149? I knew what you were talking about, but I didn't want you guys You guys are so slick with your terminology. Sorry. [laughter] Technically, with an escorp, you have to follow those ownership percentages.

So, if we're 60/40 and we distribute 100 bucks, 40 has to come to the 40%, 60 has to come to the 60. Even though you guys probably talked about some deal where he's going to put in 50 and so, hey, when we take our first 10 grand, he's going to get his, you know, portion back. And so, you can't do that with an escorp. You have to follow what the ownership percentages are. Partnerships, like I said, are literally the wild west where we can have this thing owned 99% and 1%, but yet when we distribute the first 50 grand worth of cash, it can go 2525. So, you have a lot more flexibility and in your sense creativeness to make this deal work from a partnership perspective, which is an LLC taxed as a partnership. If I go LLC taxed as an escorp, we're technically a corporation.

We're not partners, we're shareholders. And it's just a little bit more formal versus a partnership is LLC. You have multiple members now, aka partners. And you can get very willy wacky with how you want to organize it because partnerships are when you start a business. Think about my business. This guy was an online media guy, had a ton of followers. I'm this nerdy ass accountant that knows how to do accounting. And I'm like, you'll drive the clients.

I'll do the work. Let's join. And it was a beautiful partnership when it started. Yeah. our revenue skyrocketed. He brought in the leads, I service the work. Where it started to go a little bit separate was he wanted to sell the business way earlier than I did. Sort of a pump and dump of get it to 510 million and sell it.

But I'm like, dude, I'm an accountant. What else am I going to do? I'm going to go out and start a new one or I want to [laughter] run this one. So, this is not working here for me. I need this business to feed my kids. And then also, it was I started to post content online and I'm I don't know, I'm not the average accountant and so people kind of gravitated that and I started to source my own leads. So, I didn't really need this partner that was holding on to a lot of points just to drive business. So, we just started to naturally work ourselves apart.

But again, beautiful when it started, but did not work over the long term. So, the partnership allowed us to keep that flexibility going. We had so much flexibility in the way that I was getting paid when we got started because he was already a self-employed individual. I was leaving a W2 job with a six-month-old thinking, "Oh my god, I need I need to buy groceries every week. " So, partnership allowed me to do that and draft a deal that made sense for me, which is where I think you guys in your world, you probably see the craziest [ __ ] because it is like that where you have multiple people, skill sets are different, money's different. Well, and I do also think that it's scary to do it alone because then it means the failure is 100% on you.

Magnified and so people are afraid to do that. they want to do it with, you know, other folks so that if it doesn't work out, it's almost like you're saving face to me. And I learned this actually from Austin is I would much rather like fail on my own, you know, because I know that I gave it my all and I had complete autonomy to try and figure that out. When I think partnerships are beautiful is when you really do see like some key amazing folks and you want to partner up and give them an opportunity to actually create equity and own something. That's one way. Like so you're finding key individuals that you have a good conversation with and they understand kind of the path forward on what you're looking at creating and you give them an opportunity to actually own a slice of the pie.

I think that's so cool. I love when business owners do that and get basically employees are just talent invested in their company because now it's their company too, right? It's the ultimate way to compensate somebody. Yeah. Um and then also when you have just really good friends, but everyone kind of has a different skill set, but your values all align that for me and I just always go back to values with everything when I meet people. Do they value the same things that I do on a personal level? Because if they do, there's a likelihood that we are going to be able to have really good discussions and actually work through things and we have an understanding and a commonality of like respect and what we truly care about in life to where like it it just makes it a little bit easier when values don't align.

m. or something along those lines. Like that is going to create some contention and like it's going to obviously have issues in and I think about this in the business sense. What that tells me is distributions come out, this one partner is going to want to take more money than the other one. Yeah. " So, I always think about it in the dollars. That's why I use it as like a scapegoat. When I meet somebody now, within the first 3 minutes, I'm asking you what you do and how much money you make.

" So funny. You do not ask those questions. " I feel like that's so I don't know, Southern Manners or some [ __ ] My parents raised me never ask anybody. Oh, hell yeah. My dad also raised me not to ask anybody like what they did as hell. But I don't care. That's my profession. So, I'm so used to talking about it.

Questionable characters roaming around the the house every once in a while that didn't have said normal jobs. So, I was always told not to ask what people do. Don't look him in the eye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, when when when her and I got together, I was always just kind of cringey when she was just like so black and white on like this is who do you do? What do you do?

You know, how much? Let's talk about it. It's nice though because you can almost see the people that are really comfortable in talking about it, I would say, are pro are a little bit um I want to say like better off in the sense of it's not so like taboo to talk about. So, they're used to it. They're they're facing it more because how often do you see a small business owner or let's just say a new tattooer that's like a little bit too scared to check their bank account and where the money's going cuz they're just like, "Yo, I'm just riding this high here. " And so they're kind of sometimes worried to look at it versus the person that's very open about it is comfortable because they feel like they they've assessed the situation versus other people are just flying by letting the receipts shoot out the back.

Well, see, and that's like I even think about that with retirement. Like my Oh, that's even worse. Yeah. My parents very open with what they're doing with retire and talk to me about it all the time. Like it's funny cuz I almost feel like we have this regular standing monthly meeting even though we really don't but they just kind of talk to me about hey what should I be doing or this cuz they're entering into a period of time where they are looking at retiring. I love that they're doing that because then we actually get to have a really good conversation cuz I am their daughter, right? I'm going to have to be a part of essentially their entire retirement life. and if money gets, you know, it it runs out or whatever the case may be.

And so it helps me understand what I need to prepare for if I do or where they're at. And also reassure them that like, hey, I get the Norton, but I don't care if you blow all your money. I just want that motorcycle. Joe is [laughter] not getting it. Like my brother is not getting that one. But I love how we can have like it's so important to have those conversations and people shy away from it because of the fear aspect and just the fact that it could be a difficult conversation and it people could get fired up but what's the worst that would come out of it? you get fired up and I remember my dad telling me this about like disputes like just you know fights if you will like he's like okay you fight but you fight to resolve and what's the worst that's going to come out of it you actually come to a resolution and understanding of each other and then it doesn't happen again later on when you've built all this yeah and now you have a better like way to move forward and through future arguments does that sound like a terrible outcome no you gain clarity through the whole thing Yeah, it does.

If someone runs and never talks to you again, then you learned real quick that that's not somebody that was genuinely loyal to you. For sure, dude. For sure. Yeah. We've we've all dodged probably some bullets. A lot of bullets. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We're We're lucky to be right here right now. The So, the only other thing I do want to ask you, couple of things that I I call it like rumor has it, right? It's like just things that you see in the social media world on finance gurus [clears throat] and things. Yeah. that are just like talking cuz I do hear that a lot in this space too honestly kind of everywhere that oh if you you can uh employ your kids and pay them a W2 or you know pay them a paycheck and when you do that you can then use that money to then basically cover all of the expense of just taking care of your children. Can you give us a little bit of like more clarity and rundown on like how can you actually do that and not get in trouble? Yeah.

So, yes, you can do that. The problem and why it sounds so sus is the way that people talk about it and honestly give too much context on the back end when they're like you could pay your kids up to the standard deduction and then spend the money on their tuition which is what you would have spent money on anyways and all that kind of jazz. when the money it is ultimately paid to the kid and you're a custodian on the account. Yes, you can do whatever you want with the money. But let's back up a step further and talk about the logistics of how you'd actually make that happen successfully to where if you're flagged for audit, it actually passes. So, can you pay your kids? Yes. I've seen kids as little as three or four.

That's more on the modeling picture side of things. if you're a photography business and things like that. But if you have a kid that's 8 9 10 11 12 and they're doing mailers, they're licking envelopes, they're sweeping things, they're organizing the home office, they're whatever it is that you can put them to work for. If you've documented what you would pay someone else to do that job, if you've actually set up a bank account in their name and actually you're a custodian on it and you've actually paid them and kept track of the hours that they're working for you and paid them the amount of wage times hours to that kid in that bank account, then yes, it's a good strategy cuz let's think about what you can do here. First, you get a deduction as the business owner.

So, if I can find a way to pay my two kids, I have three kids. We'll just say three kids, five a piece. They're too young and they're lazy. They're not doing [ __ ] [laughter] Let's just say there's five a piece. That's 15 grand. If I can find a way to pay my kids 15 grand and let's just say I'm in the 30% tax bracket, that saves me five grand in cold hard cash taxes. So, that is a good strategy to do. But where that goes bad is my kids aren't really doing the work.

I didn't document it and actually document what their role was and how much I should pay them and show that it was, hey, a fair market value for someone else to do the job. I paid it to my own bank account. Even worse, I didn't, like we said, I didn't even pay it to them and it sat in my bank account, but I just like wrote it down on the organizer that the accountant gave me. Even worse. So, if I can actually prove that my kids are doing something, I've documented it. It is a good strategy to pay them because not only do you get the deduction, which is a, hey, that's great. You're going to get the tax savings, but let's talk about what if you start an IRA for that kid when they're that young. The problem is people think that you can take like right now if I walked into like a Charles Schwab, I could not put down 5,000 bucks for one of my kids into an IRA.

The rule is you have to have earned income to even contribute to an IRA. Meaning I can't just gift my kid money. My kid has to earn money. So [snorts] one of the sort of next layers to this strategy is if you have an 8-year-old that's truly earning 5,000 bucks from you and then you take that money and go put it into an IRA and you don't spend it on school tuition or diapers. I hope your 8-year-old's not still in diapers, but you know what I mean. There is that, hey, now I can start an IRA. And when's the last time I know adults that are in their 20s and 30s that don't have IAS yet, but this kid now is sitting with 5,000 bucks in an IRA. And if we talk about this whole Roth versus traditional, that 5,000 could grow to half a million over the next 40 years, 50 years, and they won't owe a dime of tax.

So your kid just got started 10, 15 years earlier than, you know, than their adult did or, you know, another adult did. So, yes, that is a strategy that makes sense. I think it's the way that people pitch it. It sounds sus when I'm like, yo, if your kid is really doing work in your business, pay them. It's a deduction for you. It's free cash for them. Yes, you can spend it on whatever you were going to spend it on anyways, but also there's another layer, too. Maybe you should do a retirement account and start building the nest egg.

So, yes, we'll we'll we'll say that that is it. But I love that you provide the clarity because there's a lot more detail involved than just like, oh, just put them on payroll and pay them and then that's it. The other thing, and I totally just thought of this, but I was like, I totally see this happening, kids actually suing their parents when they get older for unpaid compensation because they know, like, you said I got paid. You used it on my toothpaste and my meals and my school. I didn't ask for you to spend my money that way. I [laughter] need you to pay me now for all this back pain. Imagine that. Dude, they'd have it happen.

It totally they'd have grounds. That might be an entirely different new like contingency law firm. I feel like I just created [laughter] a lawyer standing with a bunch of kids around them. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Because you could trigger a tax filing requirement for the kid and like ultimately have them owe penalties and things like that if you're not watching how much you're paying them and thing and sort of stuff like that. So yeah, that could hurt the kid. Another like rumor or I wouldn't say rumor but this is the classic problem that I see with a lot of tattooers is they don't they want to avoid paying taxes.

They just don't want to pay taxes at all any stuff. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about how you know that thought process and why you should probably try to avoid that and really kind of ensure that you are just showing a level of income and yes paying a certain level of tax and then that kind of mirrors into why I feel it's so important which is it can actually afford you the ability to then acquire borrowing real assets. Yeah. We called this the yolo yesterday, didn't we? Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Uh yeah. So my brain tells me this. If you're somebody that's just completely trying to fly under the radar, you one have to watch out for a 1099K, which is let's say you that you use Stripe to collect payments. If you ultimately collect cash through that, which let's be honest is going to go to your bank account, you can go to an ATM, you can go write checks from it, you can still spend the cash and not report it on your taxes. " So, if you know, John now doesn't go off and file his tax return, he can easily get selected for audit because the documentation trail screwed him. But let's take it a step further of John doesn't want to pay taxes and he's mainly all cash and he keeps a shoe box full of receipts and a wad in his pocket. What's going to happen is, hey, you're on the honor system, so the IRS may not figure it out.

But that's where you get into these legalities of like, hey, John, are you a real adult here? Because you want to go buy a home, good luck, pal. You want to go buy a car, good luck. you're going to have to go to the used lot and hopefully get one for five or six grand cash kind of thing. So, it's going to cost you in other areas and bring you a lot of headache because of banking purposes mainly. Like if you try to stay off the grid like that, you're going to run into other issues is, you know, sort of my advice there. So, the trade-off is yeah, you may be paying less in taxes, but the headache it's going to cost you in other areas of your life is going to be 10fold. Well, and not only that, I think the level of what I see is people now looking to amend 2 3 years worth of tax returns and going through the headache of trying to prove out that they actually made more income because it is a second thought.

Like it's a random act for them to actually like go and try to secure a house or, you know, acquire an asset. " Yeah. And I'm going to now pay to amend. And it's like for me I'm like it's so much easier if you just actually look at planning those things. It I know that planning can sometimes be a challenge. And this is the ultimate differentiator that I see with extremely successful people. They have the discipline and the consistency to endure and actually like move forward on long-term like goals and ultimately have this discipline regularly. Even if they don't have an investment that they want to make immediately, they know that they're always prepared and securing funds for a potential investment to be deployed should one come up.

M. So, at the very least, if you don't have a long-term goal, like think about that and have that in mind when you are actually working on your business or setting aside money. You're setting aside money for a potential future outcome and you are actually accounting for that in your financials, right? To show that if you do need to borrow funds cuz there's so many things that come out of it that is a positive. You get cheaper interest rates. you are a more viable like borrowing person. So you get better structures, you get lower fees, like you get to actually negotiate better terms because you know that you're a viable candidate and you can go to the potentially best possible offer for you. There's so many positives.

Like I can't think of one like negative aspect of it other than in the meantime until that day comes where you actually need to leverage, right? borrow money for something that you really want, you do have to pay a little bit of taxes to show that you are making the money. That is to me the really only downside to it. But is that really a downside? It's kind of the cost of being able to secure ultimately a financial future for yourself and like a foundation. Like I think about the cost of living here in Las Vegas and how much it's risen since 2019 and how many more people are migrating here. People are being priced out of being able to purchase homes and they're waiting for this fallout, right? They're waiting for that ' 09 recession to happen to where houses were like 80 grand and I'm just going to pick up that that isn't coming.

Like that's not likely to occur again. And so you have to be working towards something and actually if you are going to be here like secure that otherwise you're just falling prey to whatever your landlord needs to charge you. Yep. And now all of a sudden like your costs are going up and you have zero control over it. Yeah. I personally paid rent on a tattoo shop for over what 20 22 years now. Yeah. How many more people do you think if they took more time planning and just organizing their finances probably would be in the position to buy the building that they've just been working in versus they're like I can't find a way around it and it's like well you just need to focus a little bit more like you said finance-wise on the future and with buying assets there are tax deductions there are other pay tax potentially for two or three years if you buy a building just because of the way that the tax savings would fall out but that's a big misconception too is that you know people are paying zero in taxes through their 20s and 30s when in reality that's someone's earning period.

That's when you're starting your business and you should be paying the most amount of taxes, but yeah, you want to mitigate them, but people thinking that they're going to pay zero really just sets them up for failure because what we like to say in the tax world is too the goal is to bring it down to zero, but sometimes the tax bill that you pay is your bargaining power and your borrowing power. So, um yeah, there is sort of a medium there. Well, and just being able to spit it out quickly. Just even organizing where your financials are. Like that's number one. Yeah, we do that. But again, I am a finance person, so I do have a leg up on understanding that. But it is nice to know like, oh, we want to buy this house.

We want to do this. Okay, like here's everything in 30 minutes. Like I don't have to worry about chasing down all these ancillary random documents cuz I don't have them anywhere or being like, "Oh my god, I need to get an interim done because we're in, you know, June and I need one through May 31st. Oh my god, what is going on with the business? how do I put that together and now I'm going to be paying someone if I don't have the time to do it and be like how and just name your price essentially right and that's what I'm saying too is it will cost you in the long run for not doing it at some sort of frequency because I tell people if you come to me and your tax returns 800 bucks hey Jim 800 bucks great 2 months later you come back to me with messy financials hey Jim it's 1 1300 because I don't want to you I I was going to charge you to do your tax return I was not going to charge you to do your bookkeeping if I'd be glad to, but oh, you know, now he wants Yeah, I want to charge you more because you you didn't you don't have your, you know, your information prepared.

So, that's where I try to tell people is like it's more of an investment to pay a professional because you're going to ultimately pay it at some point in time. Uh, and you're going to get it cheaper for getting it upfront as far as an engagement goes. But if you come to somebody late, if you're like, "Well, hey, great. No worries. It was 800. " Okay, it's 1,700. Yeah. Yeah.

It just keeps racking because you're just you're pushing the right the pressure to other sources other than yourself because you weren't doing the planning and taking the two hours a month it took for the last year. I've had so many just so many co-workers and peers like avoid taxes at all costs and then just start watching them when the IRS finally does catch on and they start coming after their ass. Dude, that is not someone you want after you you do that. Do you think it's Yeah. What do you think the main reason is that they operate like that? Is it a type of person like it is truly the creative or is it a money thing that they don't want to pay for the service? I think it was an industry standard just back in the day. It was a very cashbased business and a very like underground kind of business that it wasn't on TV.

It wasn't people people weren't Yeah, that's true. It wasn't in the limelight, you know? So, it was this kind of fun little small business that you could run and make a [ __ ] ton of cash under the table and everybody was paying cash. But then, you know, as time goes on, more people pay less cash. Um, you know, and then more people are providing the service. It's just getting a lot more professionalized and certain. How long How long do you [clears throat] guys got today to hang out? A little bit longer.

Uh, yeah, about like 15. We're about 15 out, but [clears throat] I guess so. I mean, I don't know if you want to close out with this, but what would be the starting point for any individual? Let's say they're like, you know what, I do like this. I do need to work on these things. like I do need to actually set myself up, stop avoiding it, stop ignoring it and having it on a to-do and just actually start focusing on this and getting it more into my routine. What are some of the things that they can do? Like cuz I know True Books, that's what I love about your firm is that you have so many different varying levels for people based on what they're actually looking for and what they need.

My biggest piece of advice is, and this is where I say I love talking tax, and tax is the sexy tax strategy and how you'll save money, but I can't get over the fact of you're not going to be able to save any money or hit that euphoric like planning session with your accountant without having your numbers of what the business has already done, sort of the path. So, my biggest piece of advice is getting the structure set up. So, it was the four things: LLC, EIN, bank account, credit card. Once you have those things in order, which I mean like asking you, at least 80% of the people got to be operating with a business bank account, you'd say, or they still maybe Well, now like when we started, we started insisting that everybody has their own license, their own insurance, and is paying their taxes or you can't work here.

So, cuz we have too much to invest in. Oh, you're shot, right? But I just mean overall like let's just say in the industry do you think the majority of people are doing I would say that's the standard now at least 70 80% of people like a business yeah they have at least a bank account but they might be doing the co-mingling then the only thing I would say for that person is once you have just that initial structure stop comingling so like I know that's hard but carry the cards that you need to if you need to do it one off like once a quarter maybe cuz you got caught with maybe the wrong card that's fine but my next honest step is go into your bank account. And if your bank is already not doing some form of bookkeeping for you, I have a template I'll send to you.

You can give it to whoever's listening or watching. And it would be to dump the transactions into this template and start categorizing because for me it's so I call it the gut check test is we work with a lot of real estate investors, service- based businesses. " And nine out of 10 it's like no way. You know the the P&L shows that they've made 20 grand and they're like no I've probably made like 80 to 100. So we already know something is way off between the accounting and what's actually happened cuz the operators have such a good sense of what's going on in their business that the numbers aren't matching. So I'd say that they need some form of template. Get all the transactions out of their bank and get some layer of organization which this template will help them do.

Because if you're not going to go the template route I always tell people hire a bookkeeper. Go get QuickBooks. try QuickBooks yourself. But for me, it's they just need to get to this point where they're looking at a profit and loss for their business over, you know, we're in June, so at least for the year or maybe for last year. That is the first step to really setting yourself up for doing things better in the future is is honestly the first thing to do is what I'd tell people. Yeah, I love that. I'm excited about all this information. [laughter] It's fun.

It's really cool. Yeah. And it's that is very simple. I even me it's very elementary, but it's like that's what you got to do. I love QuickBooks, but I don't do my own books. I don't have time to do them, but I do look at them and I always run it to where I get to see every single month like as Yeah. And the reason that I love to look at it that way is because it helps me understand which months were better than others both on the revenue and the expense side. And then I line that up with my knowledge of like what did we do in these months and why?

And like is that is that normal? And then I'll even go a step further and compare it to prior period. This is obviously like not expecting everybody to do this in the beginning, but these are the capabilities of what you could do. And doing that really helps you understand how am I performing to last year. And you already know this as a business owner. It's slow, right? If it's slow, you already know that. You don't need the numbers to tell you that.

But what you do need the numbers to help you with is what can I get skinny on or slim down or what is truly my break even every day so that I know if I have $1,100 coming in the door I'm able to pay everything and everyone right if I don't have $1,100 a day coming in just you know throwing out an arbitrary number then I know that there's something else going on I need to recalibrate and rethink about how I'm running this business and how I'm getting people through the door because that's not sustainable. And you don't if you don't have a lot of cash on the side to be able to float that. And even if you do, if you keep just throwing that money at it and you don't start trying to figure out how to recalibrate it, you're just dwindling down something that inevitably is going to run to zero, right?

And you get to see your seasonality. Like in the tax world, we're very seasonal. You look at our graph of revenue for the last 5 years. Very big in March and April dies in the summer. Very big September, October. So looking at it month over month, you can easily see what the seasonality is of your business when you're probably buying the most supplies. Like does you know do do they usually bulk up and buy supplies like once a quarter or do you find it where it's just like a rotating every month? It's kind of an emotional [laughter] it's like it's spontaneous as hell.

It should be. I think you definitely should be looking at everything you're using. There's varying different some people do stock up, others buy as they go. Um, so it really is kind of and I mean shops are also different. Some shops offer a certain level of base supplies that are offered to you'll have like a manager ordering in bulk and then and some or everybody's kind of just trying to yeah figure it out by Friday. You [laughter] know, it's interesting, too, because the business owner always enjoys, from what I've seen, the first time they see financials, they like looking at their business in that light because they're so used to running it dayto-day via text message and phone call and email because that's what they're doing in the ops.

But when they get to see the finances of their business, they like it because it's something new for them. Yeah. It's a whole new perspective. It is a it is a game when you start to I it's someone told me this a long time ago when I was a teller and I never truly understood it until I actually got to the point where I wasn't like broke and was making money but they said there is nothing more fun than seeing your savings grow. Like there is nothing more addictive and more fun than actually seeing cash grow in your bank account. And I never understood it ever for years. I was like okay that's cool. Loretta.

" It's like, "Oh, could I get to this number? " Now, with actually savings accounts and money markets, paying a good decent interest rate, you're like, "What? I'm making a couple hundred a month as well with my money just sitting there doing nothing. " It's just it's really cool to see something just continuously grow over time and that becomes the addiction rather than you know nice things and a car and being able to just like show on Instagram all the cool things you're buying and all the trips you're taking. Um and that stuff is still fun too. Like there's always a fine line and a balance of making sure that you're still enjoying your life and that you're also saving for the future. " Now you have options. You have possibility, right?

That's so cool to be able to actually have that rather than coming from a place where it's like you're just reacting to whatever life is throwing at you because you have no options available to yourself. You've set nothing up. And so now you're just reacting to all of these things. The down economy, not having enough money, rent going up, cost of food going up, you know, all these things. And it's just happening to you and you have no control over it. That sound that feels like a helpless situation to be in. Yeah. Sounds scary, but you have control over it.

That's what I find so fascinating. You actually have control over fixing that for yourself. It just takes some work. I think it takes really just a couple hours on a late night, but I think that a lot of people are probably really intimidated with the process. That's why like my answer was go to your bank account, get all the transactions out of it, put them in a spreadsheet, categorize them. You will be so happy you did. " So, um, and that's where I feel like the cuz now I'm trying to think like, how do you motivate the person? cuz that's where we're at is like for for the people that we see in our business like it kills me to see somebody come to me wanting our service, but I'm like I got to charge you way too much money or honestly you're not even in a spot to work together because you haven't done these things.

So it's like how do you motivate them to do it? And it's like you just have to trust that you're going to love what you see after 30 60 days. Yeah. And I I do I'm like I'm s I am a total helpful person. I want to try to help everyone and then I realize like you're not at a point where I can help you because you're not even helping yourself. You're just coming to me trying to get me to fix your problem. And I I can't fix your problem. I can tell you what you can do once you get yourself out of this, but I can't actually make you get yourself out of this.

Like, you have to do it on your own. Yeah. Grow some legs. Yeah. Okay. So, any information? How How do we find you? Instagram is probably the best.

Just first name, last name, Matt Bontrager, and then our firm's name is True Books. Yeah. All right. You mentioned that um form. That's awesome. I want to Yes, I will send you the template. Yeah. Anyway, we can share that be awesome.

And then Megan Comfort, my lovely wife. Thank you. My spicy meal. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Uh dude, thank you guys so much for tuning in. Uh I think we are definitely going to work on this doing some more stuff like this and we're excited to share more hopefully extremely helpful information to tattooers and service providers all alike. So, um anyway, thanks so much.

I appreciate it you guys. I appreciate you guys taking the time to do this with me today. And let's have a good one. All right, we'll see you around. Peace.

All right, what's happening? This is Austin from Support Your Local Tattooer. Super excited here today to be with my man Bicycle Bob. He's been riding his bike across the country and this is not his first time doing it. He was nice enough to stop in with us today. He rides his bicycle, tattoos. Mhm. Camps along the way, occasional Sidi Motel.

Yep. And the better. A lot of characters in between. Oh, yeah. Which is super super rad. Um, so [ __ ] Yeah, dude. Thanks for coming. I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me, man. Yeah, it's good to see you again. Yeah. So, we just got done having breakfast and having a lot of fun conversations about tattooing in general. Yep. And your adventures and then it's all kind of led us here today, dude. Yeah. Yeah.

So, in the making. Yeah. Dude, give me a little synopsis on your trip right now. Like, you you started uh I started out of Denver in beginning of August. So, it's been about oh 10 weeks now. And it was 3,500 miles um through what six states. Colorado, uh Utah, Idaho, Oregon, California, and Vegas. Yeah.

Or Nevada. So, yeah. Yeah. Six days, 3,500 miles. Damn. And we're talking legitimate bicycle packed up all day. Yep. Loaded up.

No electric bike [ __ ] around here. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. No ebikes. You're doing gnarly hill climbs. [ __ ] yeah.

Uh, I mean sometimes what like sometimes walking them up for a couple miles. Really? Yeah. But what goes up's got to come down come down and like to get to the top of a mountain pass and then hop on and you know you're hitting 45 50 miles an hour on a good day coming down, man. Yeah. And the bike jams, dude, with all the weight on it, right? Yeah. But it handles like a Cadillac, man.

It's so when it's all loaded up, it it it rides better loaded. I mean, it's it's built for this, you know. But rides better loaded than unloaded. It just feels super stable and cruisy, man. It's Yeah. Yeah. It's a good time for sure. And And like on average, like how how many miles are you doing a day?

Uh I mean on on good days, I'm hitting 100 pluses. On average days, I would say 70 to 80. On mellow days, maybe 50 or 60. Yeah, dude. 70 to 80 on an incline is completely different obviously like if you're doing some of your like all day climbs. Yeah. I mean just even getting over here the was it yesterday I guess like I went through uh Mojave National Preserve and it wasn't even a steep climb. It was like a like a 2% grade which isn't much but it went on for like 40 miles or something.

So you're riding at like maybe under 10 miles per hour for you know so it's like 4 hour climb man you know. Holy [ __ ] Um but then you know some of them are steeper and hopefully shorter you know and it seems to go like the steeper they're going to be the shorter the shorter it's going to be but um yeah I mean every day is different every climb's different everything's always different. Yeah. I love that dude. It keeps keeps you on your toes. Yeah. Yeah. Every day is different.

I think that's the thing I fell in love with about it is that like you just don't know what each day is going to bring. You don't know what challenges you're going to have. You don't know the people you're going to meet. You don't know what's over the horizon every day, man. And it's that sense of adventure, that newness of like what is gonna happen today, you know, that keeps it keeps the the pedals turning, man. Yeah. And you're always incorporating guest spots for tattooing into these long rides or I mean, I haven't always, you know, my my first my first bicycle tour was not tattooing. And it was uh it was for my 40th birthday that was coming up in 2016.

I rode from San Francisco to New York just to do it um without having any experience of bicycle touring at all. Like I was riding road bikes a little bit when I was living in Colorado. Yeah. Um and had the stamina to do 100 mile days and stuff, but uh this was the first like okay, pack up camping gear and set out and cross state lines and get from one coast to the other and see see what happens. And you got some GPS type units like that help you or like Yeah, I mean I just use Google Google Maps on my phone for the most part. You know, there's more established routes that you could get, you know, maps and stuff like that, but especially when I was first started, I really didn't know what I was doing. I would use Google Maps and just as long as I was going east, I knew I was going the right way.

And I would, you know, make up decisions and make up routes as I I would go and just kind of try and get from point A to point B every day and set a goal and and try and get there, too. Yeah. How often are you scheduling days off? I mean, you can't how how many days in a row can you do 70 to 100 miles a day? I mean, [ __ ] man. That's that first tour I ever did. Okay, so it broke down to I left I left um San Francisco. I think it was like August 5th, right?

My birth 40th birthday was September 21st. I grew up in New York. Uh my family still lives in New York. I wanted to pull up to the house that I grew up in on my 40th birthday. So, I had 45 days to do it. I rode 39 out of those 45 days and I rode 3,940 miles. So, it was averaging 100 plus a day. Oh my god.

Um, yeah. But I was also that was, you know, the goal was to get to the other side. So, it was ride all day. Like I wasn't really stopping to do other things. packing gear and just ride until I was done for today, set it up, keep going, you know, I didn't like stop at national parks and like, you know, stop to sniff the roses or anything. It was just like, I'm on this mission. I'm on a go. Let's do it, you know.

And uh and it was awesome, man. You know, I accomplished a goal. I actually was so ahead of schedule that I added on extra states that I wasn't planning on going through because I wanted to pull up on my birthday, you know. Um, so yeah, so when that was done, um, I was living in Durango, Colorado, and I went back, man, and like I couldn't go back to a stagnant lifestyle, man. Like it it had infected me, you know, and and uh, you know, I had done guest spots and stuff and and not tattooing, not not riding bikes, just doing cat spots. And uh, yeah, it just hit me like, why not do both, man? So I started selling off everything I own. And it took maybe 10 months to slowly purge myself of all my personal possessions.

And uh yeah, and then it came the day, it was in June of 2017 that the only thing I had left was what was on my bike. And I hit the road to do it full-time. And it lasted 3 years and nine days, I think, until co shut it down. It was 2017 to 2020. It was 16,000 plus miles. 32 states. I was trying to do 50, but co shut it down. Oh, and it was like 65 shops or something like that, man.

That was the first time doing a tattooing. Okay. Yeah. So, that was like, okay, we're going to we're going to guest spot. We're going to hop spot to spot to spot to spot. Yeah. Oh my god. And and you see you mentioned kind of earlier is like a lot of your guest spots are just literally just word of mouth and like somebody's connects you with the next person and the next person.

I mean, Yeah, man. And I mean it just you don't have like a tour manager type mentality when you go on getting chops up and and you know in the beginning when I first started you know I was just kind of bouncing around and um you know doing whatever you know walkins came in on stuff like that. But about, you know, by the third year of me doing it back then, uh, my social media kind of grew and I started becoming, you know, known for my my drawings as well as like this dude's riding around and, um, you know, it was right. I at that point towards the end, I would set it up by season. So, I would list like 10 or 12 shops I'm going to be for spring or summer or whatever and hit me up if you want a part of it. And I was fortunate enough that man, people were into it, you know, and and most shops I would go, I was I was had a a pretty decent schedule and I would book for just the days that I needed to be there.

" And I got 200 miles to get to the next spot, so I got to go, you know, and um so yeah, it was a trip, man. " you had your bike and everything and it we were just all gathered around and we were just so fascinated with trying to figure out how how the [ __ ] you got everything on there and how it just seems like such a foreign thing like most people there's not too many people that are like grinding out that many miles on a bike and [ __ ] much less like turning it into this cool lifestyle of like traveling and getting to meet new people and it's really cool man. I was like it's combining two passions man that that work really well together man. So after that long ride from east coast to west coast, you that's when you literally were just it just switched for you and you were just I'm not going back to this regular as it took it cuz at the time before that man I was I was definitely had east coast uh work ethic you know where I was working six seven days days a week tattooing.

I was getting a little burnt out, man. And and I took a step back to do that and think about what I wanted out of tattooing and and uh you know, I did kind of come back like, okay, I need to start setting a little bit more parameters where I'm just doing a fiveday work week and I'm not, you know, cuz I always have a great time with clients, man. " And next thing you know, you're giving off most days off, you know, you're at work, you know. So, um I was like, "Okay, I'm going to, you know, go to a Monday through Friday. I'm not going to do weekends anymore. " But there I just missed that adventure, man. You know, like and and yeah, it was probably about a month or two in after I returned that I was just like wheels are turning, you know, plotting and scheming.

All right, let's do this. Yeah, let's go out there full time, man. Yeah. And then like Yeah, I know kind we were kind of talking about too like how like everything that you do have on that bike, like you said at the time was everything you owned and you're you got your coil machines in there. You got power supplies. You got steel tubes. Steel tubes. [ __ ] steel tubes, man.

You're you're literally carrying all of the heaviest old school materials, too. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. How many coil machines are you trying to rocket? Like four at least, I think. Yeah, I well I was probably on on I was probably on rotaries by then. Um but you know like slide rotaries and and uh cubins and stuff like that.

Um yeah, I probably had three or four is kind of my setup. Um the twos were definitely the the heaviest thing, but power unit ink like needles on bars and um yeah, I was I would I would imagine my tattoo gear was 40 or 50 pounds on that bike. Yeah. No, totally. That's so crazy. And you said the bike was getting up to like 160 plus. Yeah, it was 160 pounds with camping gear um and tattoo gear and clothes for different seasons and and cooking gear and, you know, depending on what food I was carrying with me, depending on how, you know, what was available from one spot to the next. Sometimes you got to prepare for two days of maybe not being able to get any supplies.

Yeah, that that kind of brings up like I don't know. I just wanted to know like if there's anything that ever really like you obviously everything is unplanned so and [ __ ] can get weird at any point in time. So you're out there for a couple days like sometimes between I would say like like one night and then Yeah, it could be. It could be, man. Like it could be 140 miles of not being a or 150 depending on where you are. And those areas are usually going to be the desert, right? So like desert [ __ ] man. You better have water.

You better have, you know, like minimal to no like reception too at times. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a total location like dictates and generally there's like always like barb wire or something like running a lot like on private land and yeah I'm not pushing on to anybody's private land like that. Um but you you know it's more so the desert area where you start getting into stuff where you know there's a lot of BLM land.

Yeah. um which is open camping, camping and stuff. And um but sometimes, yeah, if it's just like you're on the road and the sun's going down and a car hasn't even passed in the past 45 minutes, you know, you're kind of out there and just there's nothing around. It's all just open, you know, and and just push off, go behind a shrub, throw up your your tent, you know, get some sleep. I'm going to be waking up as soon as the sun comes up and packing it up and especially the desert's getting [ __ ] hot, dude. It's real cold at night and then you know but I ain't doing that in cities. No, I know. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you'll jump that's where you'll start jumping into some hotels or trash or you know I mean when I'm working at spots I'm going to do Airbnb motel kind of stuff like that you know or if I know tattoos and you know we've hung out before and they offer me a place to stay I'll stay with somebody. Yeah. Any weird critters trying to get in the tent in the middle of the night? Um man I do remember a squirrel. I was in Alaska, man, and a squirrel popped its head in and uh and I was in this super trippy deep sleep, man.

And it made this crazy squirrel noise that I've never heard a squirrel make. I guess maybe they breed them differently up there. I don't know. And it woke me up and spooked me out where I didn't know what it was at first. And uh and then I thought it was like some weird ancient spirit or something. Oh [ __ ] But other than that, man, I've always kept my my, you know, my my tent zipped up. I think it was it was open just a little bit for me to get his head in there. Um I've never had um a bear encounter at night that I know of.

Yeah. Um but yeah, I mean all those kind of things weigh on your mind, but thank God I've never really had to deal with anything too severe. Do you carry like bear spray or anything like that or no? Uh the only time I think I really did was I was when I was in Alaska. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. And I I started not, you know, I took the ferry up there and I was tattooing in Juno and there's a Glacier State Park that I was camping at. It's like a 12 13 mile ride back and forth to downtown Juno where the shop was and I was there for like a day or two doing that back and forth. " He's like, "Got bear. " And Oh, that's cool. Um, but yeah, I never had a pullet on anything. So yeah, it but yeah, better to have it and not use it than not have it and need to use it. Is that how it goes?

you you're also mentioning like a lot of u real good positive messages and stuff that people have been sending you over the years which is I I love to hear like that's a really cool thing I mean we're like you know we're in we're living in this um age of social media man and like it could be you know unhealthy at times and it could be you know comparison to all this other [ __ ] and like you know oh I didn't get enough likes on this or that you know so it it you know there's definitely those connotations of social media right yeah um but Then like when I go out and I start doing stuff like this, man, I I do get a lot of people that, you know, write some really kind, encouraging words as they follow me along this trip. And and uh you know, that's the one thing, man, when you're out here solo.

Um it adds a different element where, you know, sometimes you go a day or two with not having a full conversation other than like ordering your coffee or your breakfast and stuff and you're out there by your yourself and you're in your head a lot and that's an element that you got to learn how to deal with. Um, but to sometimes just get a little a little cheer from your corner, man. You know, somebody out there just kind of, you know, rooting you on a little bit, offering you encouragement. It it it's it means a lot kind of, you know, and and I think that's the the positive side, I think, of social media could offer that like, you know, people are they're excited to watch you do it, man. Um, you know, I had a a part in this trip too in the beginning where uh a fellow tattooer got inspired to go ride his bike, you know, um just for a day, you know, and he had tagged me in his his stories.

Uh Mr. Scholtella, I think his name is. He's out in in Pennsylvania. And uh he um he got me thinking like, "Oh, okay. Let's do a week of go ride your bike somewhere, post, tag me in your story and I'll repost you and let's just, you know, make well, let's total up the mileage and see how far we could all get, you know. Oh, cool. And it got, you know, it got people out there riding their bikes and that was cool, dude. You know, it was like a little fun week for people to get involved and and kind of ride alongside of me from like remote riding challenge, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. It was fun. I like the idea of that at the end of the day like when the sun's setting that's just kind of when you just decide like this is where I'm at and I can't you know you can't really push on in complete darkness or anything. I mean I have you know it's not my favorite thing. Yeah I got lights and I I'll have a headlamp and stuff. I mean, I've ridden to 2, three in the morning at times for whatever, right? I'm going to see like the across America journey when I was trying, you know, had this goal um that it happened more on that, you know, where Yeah.

I think I did my biggest day I ever rode was 26 miles in a day and I rode to like probably two in the morning to do it. No way. Damn. Yeah. Damn. It It seems like very peaceful, but at like you said, at sometimes I'm sure you kind of deal with some loneliness creeping in or something or just like an The idea of being disconnected though sounds beautiful. Yeah. I mean, it's everything.

It's both sides of it, dude. Like with anything else, dude. There's pendulums. And one day it's you're having like this amazing epic experience, man. And you're also, you know, you're riding an endorphin high of exercise. Yeah. Um you're seeing beautiful things that you wouldn't have seen if you were in a car or whatever, you know. And then the very next day you could be dealing with, you know, headwinds that are de debilitating.

Oh yeah. Long climbs, cloudy, gray, sometimes rainy weather, all this kind of stuff that like, you know, that kind of creeps into your psyche and it starts man. And you know, you try to block out the complaining in your head that could happen sometimes. This isn't fun today, you know. Um, but the next day is going to, you know, it's there's never been a day that at the end of it, I just didn't want to be doing it. It was like, okay, today's over. We got through some [ __ ] Uh, we feel accomplished. Tomorrow is a brand new day.

Let's see what happens tomorrow. And the more you do it, the more you know that those things will go through. And it's just constant. And it's a muscle you exercise that you get better at dealing with. And that that's been one thing I've noticed, too. when I take a break from from from the this bicycle touring, usually the first couple of days that if that negativeish mindset starts seeping in, it's harder to push it out and ignore than when you're doing it all the time. You get better at not listening to that naggginess in your head sometimes, you know, and you start thinking about the better times while while you're pushing through it, man. And yeah, but it's a muscle.

It's a muscle that you need to get going again and just like you got to get your legs going again. You got to get, you know, all of those stuff going with it, too. " Yeah. Yeah. " Yeah. I mean, I had it on this trip, dude. The stretch from San Francisco to LA kind of started getting me beat up. Uh, you know, Highway One by Big Service was shut down, so I had to go inland.

Oh, okay. Inland brought in cloudy days and gray overcast. And just riding through through farmlands isn't the most scenic, you know. Um, and I definitely hit the wall of like, man, I'm homesick. Uh, I kind of want to go home. I know I'm not going to call it and I had to work through it. And I got to LA and tattooed in LA. And then like, I'm so glad I left the desert for, you know, the final chapter or final stage of this tour.

Um because coming out the past four days through, you know, through all the desert, desert's my favorite area in the country, man. Either you know, California, Nevada, um you know, you southern Utah, northern Arizona. I just love desert. Um the sun's bright and strong and sunny and blue skies and it's hot and it'll get you, but like there's just something bright and sunny and happy for me in the deserts. Um, so yeah, the like this stretch from LA to here was a complete 180 of that where I almost don't want to go home now, you know. Um, but yeah, I think it's it's time to go home and um I think this is going to be a yearly thing. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm super excited about that.

Like I said, I want to help you like in any way we can. I think it'll be really cool. I've just always been a big fan of what you do. Yeah, I keep thinking about those like the sunsets, too. I just keep going back to like it just seems like such a peaceful like sometimes in the morning is there like a little mental hurdles you got to get yourself over you're like uh I mean to get on camp sometimes you know sometimes I'm a little lazy and yeah uh you know if it's a little chilly in the morning it's going to take me a little bit more to go but um but no you kind of you know get on it and and get it done. There's parts that like sometimes you want to like you're like okay I need to start before the sun gets up um because there's you know certain elements I'm going to have to deal with today.

hot sun or you know I was in Colorado there was days that I knew it was going to be straight on headwinds at like 20 25 miles per hour but they come in the afternoon so it's like uh I remember hitting the road at like 4:00 4:30 one morning just to get as many miles covered before those winds started picking up yeah and that's just kind of like okay let's do this let's see where we get and hopefully they don't get too bad I love it though are so are you drawing ever like out there I mean you know just kind of And I wish I I wish I had more time for that. I mean, there's there's been times where okay, like if I'm going to take a day off, I might get a motel and and get into my sketchbook, but what the actual ride days um are tough cuz they're riding all day long business that day, get get it done.

And at the end of the day, I just don't have the energy to sit and draw. Um you know, with this tour, uh you know, it's it was planned probably six months in advance. um where I had my clients booked and I did all the drawings pre leaving for the tour, emailed the drawings out, got them approved. Um because everything had to be ready to go. Yeah. You know, you walk in, you got four hours or five hours of my time cuz as I'm breaking down after we're done, it's a good chance that the next one's walking in. So there's no like we need to make last last minute adjustments. " Yeah.

Before I get there cuz it's crunch crunch time, man. You know, like, yeah. Bang out this one. No one's coming in. So, yeah. I mean, it's been a while since I've really had the the pleasure of just kind of diving into a sketchbook with a cup of coffee. And I think that's what I'm looking forward to to getting home and getting back to like having fun drawing now, man. You know, is there any I don't know why I was just thinking about like how nice it would be at the end of the day when you finally find a place where you get a hotel and you're like, you know what, I [ __ ] want like a chicken fried steak or something like eat some [ __ ] that you normally wouldn't eat, but you've been riding your bike all day long, you need to catch up, like you said, on the calories and stuff and feel no guilt about just eating the most epic meal.

So funny you said that because my meal of this trip was was chicken fried steak and for breakfast, dude. I was reviewing them around the country. Oh, that's so fun. I had posted a couple on my stories of like this this is the new number one. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. For some reason I mean I try to eat, you know, pretty sensibly at home, man.

You know, like I try to I don't eat processed food and I I try, you know, sometimes I cut out sugar, like any type of sugar. Well, I guess not fructose and and and fruit and stuff, but like all added sugars for like, you know, a good month or so, which I'm going to do when I go back home. Yeah. Um, but this has been like donuts, [ __ ] fountains, sodas. Like there was one and it's it's crazy, man, because there was one day where I'm like sitting outside this little convenience store and I got myself a cream soda, like maybe A&W cream soda, right? Oh, okay. And it was just hitting so good, man. Really?

God damn, why is it so [ __ ] good? And then I label around and it was like, it's got 146% of your daily sugar. Oh, wow. One bottle. Whoa. Yeah, that alongside side of doughuts I've eaten and all that kind of stuff. And um it's like, all right, well, you know, you're burning it, you know, like I'm burning, you know, four or 5,000 calories someday. Um, so I do it, but I also don't want to go home addicted to sugar where I'm going to be like, you know, on the sugar kick and not burning the calories, you know.

Um, so yeah, there's definitely I allow myself to cheat a little. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine you learn a lot about your body, too, when you're going through these things. Like, you know, when you're out there, you're like learn how to how far to push yourself and when you need this or when you need that. Yeah. I mean, there's days where you kind of hit the wall sometimes. It's like, all right, we're only doing 50 miles today, you know? Really?

Yeah. You know, and there's been a couple of spots like I think when I got to Portland, man, I got ended up getting there a couple days early and uh I ended up sleeping like 10 or 12 hours a night for two nights straight, man. Just for whatever reason. My body has needed that like catch up on catch up on some rest, man. Heal itself a little bit. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I don't know. It just sounds like you're you obviously learn so much about yourself mentally and physically.

Oh, absolutely. And you're pushing yourself to limits that like most people aren't doing it, which is really cool consistently, too. Which make you stronger and more, you know, putting in your reps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You feel like you're healthier than you've ever been in your life? I would say as I'm getting older, I am.

Yeah. I mean, I just turned 49 on this trip and I feel pretty damn good about it. You know, it's not what I thought I would be when I was younger. Um, you know, but I, you know, like a lot of tattooers, man, I was a partyier when I, you know, I started in the late 90s and tattooers were definitely parters back then, more so than now. Um, and I put my body through a lot of [ __ ] man. You know, alcohol, drugs, all that kind of stuff and Good Time Charlie [ __ ] you know. And then, uh, yeah, as I'm getting older, you know, I have the less desire to for any of that. I feel like I've been there and done that.

And I started, you know, getting more into health consscious kind of living and and realizing the overall mental health and clarity of mind and all this kind of stuff that comes from taking care of yourself better. Yeah. Um and you just don't bounce back as easy on start pushing 50, man. You know, you just get to the point to where it's just not even worth it. So, I'm not interested in it. Have fun anymore. Exactly. Love to get drunk, you know?

And I if I catch a buzz nowadays, like I don't even enjoy it. I'm like, me. Yeah. Um, so yeah, everybody changes, everyone grows in different directions, and I think it's a healthier direction that I'm kind of proud to to be going in that direction for sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Where did you start like get into tattooing? You were on the East Coast.

Yeah, I started in New York, man. Um, yeah, I apprenticed in started my apprentichip in 1997 at Peter Tattoo and on Long Island and Eric Desmond. Um, and started tattooing in 98. Um, yeah. So, that was my my start out. And you spent a lot of time, you were saying, just kind of in one place. Uh you weren't really traveling earlier in your career, right? You're Yeah.

Not so much, man. Um you know, this is also the the era of tattooing pre-social media. Yeah. Where like I mean guest spotting was different, man. " You know, like it almost like you had to be invited, you know? You had to know people. You had to be invited. Yeah.

Um, I mean, I don't think I did my guest spot, first guest spot until 2003 maybe where a coworker was friends with a dude that had a shop on Maui in Lahina and he needed somebody to come help with some shifts and he ended up setting me up with that and like so yeah, I had been tattooing for fiveish years and uh, you know, my first experience with it was to fly to Hawaii, get picked up at the Maui airport by this dude that I've never met before, you know, and I spent a month with him. He put me up with his his his family and I worked for him and all this kind of stuff. And I actually visited him on this trip. He's up in Eugene, uh, Oregon. Shout out to Felix. And stayed with him again, you know. Um, so yeah, he and that was the trip, man, because it was like he opened up my eyes to this possibility of like, oh [ __ ] you could go work anywhere.

Anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a community sense and you know, people going to help you out along the way. Um, so yeah, that was the first ever guest spot I ever did. Um, that's a nice spot. Yeah, that'll definitely, dude. I went back every year for I think through, you know, the 2010 or something.

Yeah, I went back almost every year. I might have skipped a year here and there. Um, but yeah, that was what was that shop? Uh, it was called Atomic Tattoo, which I'm not sure if it's still there. Like I said, Felix is in uh is in Eugene. Maybe somebody else took it over or something like that. Uh, well, actually, no, it's not. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, the tragedy in Lahina, which was sad cuz I was, you know, that was a magical place for me to go for a month every winter, man. And and you know, I still keep in touch with people I met in that town. And um, yeah, it had a great vibe to it, for sure. That's cool. Yeah. and you've uh man you were dropping so many names today that I was just like oh [ __ ] I they haven't these days you know things get out of your algorithm or whatever and you just don't get to hear all these great names and um it's cool that you consistently now are getting out there and and probably doing more guest spots than anybody I [ __ ] know. M yeah, I mean I go on my streaks.

It was definitely, you know, the full-time thing was was a thing and then um I feel like when I settled back down in Colorado after after co co It's kind of slow like I slowed down a little bit on it. Um, but I'm I'm trying to like get back out and have fun with it and um yeah, and just go meet people that I have never met before that I've always, you know, looked at for inspiration or, you know, search their stuff for to reference, you know, do cool [ __ ] tattoos, man. So, yeah, to go sit in sit with them and work in the in the same room with people like that is is definitely where I'm I want to be right now. You're extremely good at pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. That's for damn sure it seems. You know, or maybe this is like your new level of comfort zone, right?

This is the comfort zone. Yeah. For me to sit in one space then and stay still is the the the non-comfort zone. Yeah, that's interesting. Which I guess Yeah, I guess there's something to say about that. It's like coming off a tour and uh you know, I don't know. I've always heard about that like that. You don't know how to readjust you know thing when co shut it down.

For sure. Yeah. I went through his so like you know I was I was before I was full-time traveling I was in Durango Colorado COVID hit I didn't know what to do so I ended up back there you know to post up for a year it's a small little mountain town where I have this you know community of friends still there and uh you know I just kind of post up to see what happens with with the whole pandemic and all and uh it was definitely something I struggled with where I went from constantly on the move to boom stagnant what the [ __ ] do I do with myself I would pace around my apartment like Oh, man. You know, and and you know, it's kind of the way I I ended up in in Denver is uh my buddy Dave Rean, he uh he spent, I don't know, three or four years tattoo like traveling and tattooing himself.

He was all through America and then Europe and Germany and Iceland and all this kind of [ __ ] And he was he was, you know, settled down in Denver before this and he was out till death. And uh I just called him up to be like, "Hey man, did you go through this cuz I'm this is a more of a challenge than me can't constantly moving. He's sitting still. " He was up and down. " I just got to Durango. I had only been there for like a month or something. I was losing my mind. And I was like, "I don't know.

" All right. you know, and I ended up, you know, that was the first time I went to Till Death for for a guest spot. And then I just started kind of going up there regularly and and uh yeah, just kind of wedged myself into that shop then year later or something like that. So I've been up there for four years now. Dang. Yeah. And then and until death. Yeah.

Yeah. So you're right in like was it the Rhino District? Yeah, it's Rhino District. Yeah. It's a really cool area in Denver. Yeah. It's it's got some some good ass food down there. I had some stellar tacos at some little spot that was it was like a fancy taco spot.

Green chili is my favorite thing in the [ __ ] you know, country that a lot of other states don't know what green chili is. Yeah. Is it different? That's different than the New Mexico the hatch chili. It's the hatch chili. Okay. The Colorado I mean I'm sure the in New Mexico people would would not agree with this statement. But it's similar.

But like yeah, there's a fight over who's got better green chili. But it is the the hatch green chili kind of stuff. But like you start getting outside of that, you know, southwest territory and you know, I mean, say you're in, I don't know, Maine, like people think green chili is like what you mean? A jalapeno. Yeah. You know, or or whatever type of chili just that happens to be the color green, you know, they don't they don't know what hatch green chili means. Yeah. The uh the amount of characters that you met too over the years and like the in these guest spots, like I don't know, you had like you have any advice for like younger tattooers?

I I I I think that there's a huge value in the guest bot, you know, absolutely practicing guest bots. Yeah. Even though I admittedly don't do them and haven't ever done them. A lot on your plate. It is, man. I imagine that would be hard to get away and do them, but it's my goal is to get back into it. Like I want to get back into tattooing as soon as I get a a chance to level some things out and stuff, you know? But uh I don't know, man.

It's like I I feel like it's such a healthy thing to put yourself in those uncomfortable positions, be around people. kind of pushes you to perform. I think they're inspirational, man. You know, and and uh and I, you know, I mean, I think there is something to say that like I don't want this to sound like an ego stroke or something, but like if I'm going to work with somebody I haven't met before and I look up to their work, I'm going to try and throw down, man. You know, like um not that I don't try to throw down at home, but it's like it gives you that little extra like, yo, I want to show you what I can do, too. you know, like um so yeah, I mean there's there's something about that. There's something about just, you know, being around and being inspired by other tattooers.

Um yeah, I think it's beneficial, man. I think I think everyone should try and get out there a little bit and and go work outside your comfort zone and you know, if you h if you're not used to it, it's definitely a thing that like if you're only used to sitting in your station where everything you know where it's at, man, it's going to be a [ __ ] cluster [ __ ] of like what's going like, you know? I remember going through all those growing pains, man, that if I wasn't at my station where I didn't have to look to grab stuff. Yeah. Damn, dude. I would start sweating, man. You know, but I mean, I could tattoo on a [ __ ] porta potty right now, right? I don't think it would be hygienically, you know, sounds delicious.

Yeah, totally. But I mean, I could set up anywhere and just be comfortable now because I've I've worked at so many different stations and Yeah. Um that's doesn't doesn't kind of put me off anymore, which is cool. And the exercise of just being around like all these unique characters too because you're picking up on a probably every single shop you walk in, you're picking up on kind of some interesting vibes, some positive, some negative. You know, we talked about that earlier today. Even on my own shop experience, you know, it's it's Oh, you guys were great. It's adventurous, you know. Yeah.

I didn't I didn't know you guys when I came through and it was walking into, you know, you're walking into somebody's living room. Yeah. of everybody that's been living together and knows each other well and like has, you know, connections and they're all sitting in the recliner around you like, should I get up and talk to this [ __ ] I'm pretty I think I'm pretty good at it nowadays, man. As soon as I walk into a shop, I got I go introduce myself to every single person, shake hands, and like I'm going to be with you. Kind of like shows your like respect for the space and, you know. Yep. Yep. And yeah, I'm here to, you know, I'm here for the whole experience, man.

Yeah. And you probably met some people in like one little like for us like you just popped in. Uh I think I only I don't even know if I was in town. I was in town, right? I don't know. I remember being there for like a day. Uh yeah, you were about to go out of town. So when I came through in 2017 on my bike with you guys.

Um I I feel like I just was like researching shops and you guys had outstanding like reviews. like there wasn't a bad review and and that's why I think I reached out to you and I remember you getting me back to me on an email and I think we chatted on the phone and you were super excited about what I was doing and and it was cool and then um but yeah when I rolled through I met you at the shop early in the morning before you started your day just come and say what's up and then I think you bounced to go somewhere I don't I don't know where you went um but yeah everybody else of your crew was was super welcoming and rad and I got your studio 21 shark tattoo. Yeah, we used to throw those on anybody and everybody that came through. Dave Teanol, I just saw him this weekend and he was like [ __ ] throws it out there.

Right as soon as he walked up, he didn't say [ __ ] He's all blessed. Boom. It was cool. Yeah. But I love those moments of like where we get out of our comfort zone. We we talk to each other. We just, you know, connect with people. And then here we are today.

Like that was, you know, that's a long time ago, dude. And you know, and we maybe only like texted or talked through social media a few times. Well, I think I got to ran into you like at Van Shop at that Denver art show, man. Which Yeah, it had been a while since since I mean I think I've seen you since I was out here in 2017. So, what like eight years or something like that? Seven, eight years or something. Yeah, that's always been like one of my favorite parts of about tattooing and that that community and um just you know, we we'll just like r if you start doing a lot of conventions too, you forget how you even know each other or where you're even from, you know? You just kind of start you just run into each other and you're doing the thing back.

But have some funny ass stories, especially when you were like partying back in the day. Yeah. But that's cool. So, you've been keeping motivated and you're going to do uh you're working at Heritage Tattoo this weekend, which is Aaron's shop and awesome shop. Yeah. And you what projects are you working on this weekend? You uh I got a namakubie head. Um I got a a client that I've, you know, done a few tattoos on his arm.

She's got like a a tiger cobra on one thing, a devil head, and I think we did a wolf in Flames on the other. We just got to do the background and fill out the sleeve. Um, and my third appointment is going to be bummed that I don't remember off the top of my head right now. Uh, I did have a cancellation. Um, so that's that's a bummer, but she I have this client that has gotten tattooed by me probably four or five times, but never in the same location. That's fun. She's followed me around a little bit. Yeah.

Um, so she was going to come out. She lives in Austin and come out to Vegas to get another piece in a different location. Um, unfortunately woke up with a fever the other day and didn't want to get people sick. So, she's just going to reschedule for Denver. Um, but that means we would have tattooed her twice in Denver. But I need to plan a guest spot to meet her somewhere before we do do that. But, um, but yeah. Yeah, it's going to be a good weekend.

I'm excited to to meet some of those guys and hang out. And yeah, and then that's the end of the trip, man. And then renting a car. My buddy Cody came down from Till Death and we're going to work in the shop this weekend. And then we're renting a car and we're just belowing it back to Denver. Feel good. Do you look forward to road trips after in a different way? I mean, I don't know.

Sometimes I honestly, dude, I haven't had a car in 20 years. No [ __ ] Okay. Yeah. I guess I didn't ask you that this morning. You were talking about rent and stuff, man. Yeah. I just I don't know. When I moved to Durango, it's such a small town, you didn't need one.

Um and then I just never really thought about it, you know? So, like I'm okay when I'm driving, but sometimes when I'm in other people's cars, I get a little a little woozy. I don't wouldn't say car sick, but like Oh, really? When I Yeah. I Man, I remember hearing this like story fable thing about like this Buddhist monk that was traveling on a plane and wherever his destination was, he got off the plane and he went and found the quiet place in the airport and he just laid down. And he was laying there for so long that finally somebody came up to him and said, "Are you okay? " And his response is like, "I'm fine. " And that's how I feel when I when I go now that I kind of I get I get done, I'm a little disoriented like I got to wait my for my soul to catch up with me.

Dang. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it should be a cool road trip, man. We're going through Monument Valley and up through Moab and then uh Yeah. up and over the Rockies and shoot down the Denver. So, yeah. Yeah.

What are some What are some of your favorite spots you I mean, I know you mentioned you really like the desert. You like like riding through the desert? Everything west of the Rockies, dude. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And maybe just cuz I you know, I grew up in the east and it's new, but there's there Well, no, it's just more open land, man. You know, like Yeah.

Uh I mean, everything from going up over the Rockies and the desert and then the California coast, man. Um, you know, even when you look at a map like, you know, there's all these roads and congestion and stuff like this, you know, on the east coast from like Mississippi over Mississippi River over, you know, and then all up here is fewer roads. Um, so, you know, as a as far as doing it on a bicycle, you want, you know, more open space and less congestion, less traffic and all that kind of stuff, man. Yeah, that makes sense. You're never Are you not You ride on the interstate ever? I have. Yeah. I mean, I rode on interate yesterday, man.

15 for a while. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Generally, the rule and laws for interstate is that if there's if there's a alternative, it's going to be illegal, but if there's not an alternative, you could do it. And you're probably most likely going to be in a really rural area when you can. Okay.

Um, interstate riding is a different animal. You do have plenty of shoulder. It's like a lane and a half wide, so you have plenty of room. It's not you're not worried about, you know, the traffic. Um, but you have a lot of debris. Debris and Yeah. I was just wondering about the winds too of like a big rig cruises by. It'll push you around a little bit.

Yeah. Um, but the the I think the bigger challenge is you have a lot of shredded tires. Yeah. From trucks that has this like wire belts kind of hanging out there. They will get give you a flat, glass will give you a flat, all that kind of stuff. And then it's tricky coming up to exits or on ramps or exits, right? Where you got to if if it's an exit, you got to keep your eye on your mirror and if there's somebody that needs to get off, you got to make that decision. Do I have enough gusto to get the [ __ ] out of the way before they need to get off or am I going to back off and let it go?

So, it's this like elegant dance of traffic that you're dealing with. And uh and yeah, and the on-ramps you got to check and make sure where that person is coming on and get back over to the shoulder. So, I mean, it's, you know, it's not the worst, but it's not the most peaceful. It keeps you on your toes more. You But again, man, you're in that moment right then and there. Nothing else matters that you're just [ __ ] dialed in, focused, man. you know, and there's something to be said about that, like being like in the moment, you know, not wandering because, you know, sometimes I'm thinking about something completely different when I'm on a a road that's got no nobody on it, you know? Yeah.

But in that sense, dude, you're living that moment right then and there. Damn. That's a cool experience. Yeah. Are you listening to a lot of books or music or anything while you're out there? I got music. Yeah. Music, podcast stuff.

Uh, you know, I got a a Bluetooth speaker mounted on my handlebars. Oh, okay. Cool. So, you'll you'll keep your ears open and then just have Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want headphones in or anything like that where I can't hear stuff coming up. Yeah, dude. No.

Yeah, it's no good. But, you know, I mean, you do it you do it long enough that even sometimes the music is just like I go back and forth. Sometimes I just want the peaceful quietness. Yeah. And then music definitely helps me uh on through the harder times to focus on something else. Yeah. And sometimes you get in groove, man. You know, you start dancing on your bike to the music, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. You start having fun. Well, yeah. you're entertaining yourself like, "Yeah, man. " [ __ ] cars had had see me coming down like literally dancing on my bike, singing along, you know? That's fun. That dude's having a great time right there, man.

I wonder if it's inspired anybody else to go do it. Yeah. And then al like I was I don't know why I was just thinking too about like emotions like welling up every once in a while or something, you know? Like I sometimes like if like this I don't know if it sounds weird like if you do like a hot I do like a good amount of hot yoga and and sometimes like days you go in there is like it's really [ __ ] emotional experience dude and you just feel like you know if you're overwhelmed or anything like that that stuff just comes out of you and I'll just feel like you're like tear up randomly or something. Yeah. I just wonder if you're like just riding along in the middle of nowhere and just sometimes you just go down those rabbit holes in your head and you're like Yeah.

because you have nothing but time to think about stuff, you know, or even just pure happiness, too, you know. Absolutely, man. And I think there's a therapeutic quality to it that like I think that's when I first got into road biking, man. Like I was living in Durango and and uh you know I would wake up super early in the summer like you know five o'clock leave the house at 5:30 and I would go climb some you know mountain pass and you know you're waking all these animals are waking up herds of el crossing fields and it's you know it's it's super beautiful and and then you come bombing down you know back into town at like 40 45 miles per hour and there's just something really therapeutic to it man and uh yeah I could bring up emotions. Um, you know, I think there's something to be said about endorphin highs.

Yeah. Um, they're real for sure. Like runner's high. You hear people talk about that. Um, and Yeah. Yeah. I think it's there's there's something cleansing about it for sure. Yeah.

But sometimes also too, you could start revisiting old things that you're like, man, I thought we I thought we were done thinking about this, man. Really? What the [ __ ] going on? Why Why is this coming back? Why is this popping my head again, man? Shut the [ __ ] up already. Oh, yeah. That makes sense.

So yeah, but I guess maybe in those senses I hadn't worked through some of those things. I don't know. You know, the psyche is a weird thing, man. Yeah, that's a trip, dude. I don't know. I just I just think being alone is is a really tough thing, but really like fantastic at the same time. Just like any I wouldn't say it's for everybody, man. I feel like I have a little bit of a higher tolerance um just in general.

I think like, you know, I've always, you know, as a younger child, I was I was more of a introverted um shy, quiet character that, you know, I' I've experience a lot of time, you know, by myself, you know, working on artwork, doing this, doing that, and the other thing. Um, so I think I just over my life, I've built up more of a tolerance for for, you know, being being solo and being alone sometimes. Um where I know people that are the exact opposite that like man they would lose their mind if they were you know 6 hours by themselves you know so it's yeah everybody's different right you yeah I think as an artist I don't know I spent a lot like we spend a lot of time by ourselves drawing you know so it's like I've always felt very comfortable with that and actually admired that I do enjoy that time alone but I'm also a very social person and I do love talking so I find that balance and but sometimes when you're pushed into those like twoday rides I'm where like you said, you just like don't talk to Well, I mean, but that brings in the the great balance of of the rides and the guest spots, right?

Yeah. Um I, you know, I consider myself a, you know, a pretty conversational tattooer when I get my clients on my table, man. So, it's like, yeah, I go through these couple days of kind of solitude and then when I hit these spots and I meet, you know, these clients for the first time and then it's like, all right, let's tattoo you and let's have a good [ __ ] time doing it, man. You know, and, you know, I'm like sometimes I kind of look around and everyone else is like just doing their tattoos and I'm like, am I annoying everybody? I'm not shutting up, man. You know, I feel like I used to be a little bit more boisterous about it. It's been a conscious effort for me to dial it in and not be so rambunctious sometimes when I'm talking in shops, you know.

Yeah. Uh but I'm I'm the whole time, man. We're we're talking about any everything from like food recommendations to, you know, what what shows have you been binging to like, you know, whatever. Just the basic fun. Yeah. Yeah. Just getting to to know people and and having a good time, tattooing them and all that. How often do you walk into a shop and you're just like, I don't know if this is my vibe.

Oh man. Um, you know, it's like I feel dude not much. Um, I mean, there's one or two shops that will remain nameless when I was full-time that I was just kind of like, what? Like, yeah. Just the weirdest environment ever. Yeah. Just unwelcoming and like, you know, just kind of blow you off. It's like, okay, whatever.

Well, I mean, we don't have to, you know, be besties or anything. " Um, but yeah, I mean, and honestly, most shops are like that. You know, most shops are pretty welcoming. Tattooers are tattooers and there's camaraderie amongst us all and there's community amongst us all. But yeah, every now and then you hit an odd duck that you're just like, "All right, well, I'm just going to do my tattoo. Yeah, I'm just going to do my tattoo. " So, That's good though. I'm glad it's a lot less.

Obviously, I think I think overall it is like both people are [ __ ] you especially if they already like somehow linked through you with a friend of a friend or something like they're already they're in that circle. They're I mean Yeah. Honestly, I I've probably with guest votes and all. I mean, I I imagine I would be pushing like somewhere close to 80 to 100 shops I've been through, right? And like like I said, it's like one or two. Yeah. You know, so one or two% I guess. Exactly.

That's not That's not bad. Yeah. Dang. Well, oh, I'm excited, too. You were you were mentioning earlier about this bigger uh ride that you're potentially trying to like do next year, right? I mean, the the wheels already turning, no pun intended, um about next year's tour, you know, like I feel like it's going to be a yearly thing. Uh so yeah, there was um it's the 50th anniversary of of bikes bike bikes centennial and most people probably won't know what that is but in 1976 um to celebrate the bsentennial year uh a couple of cyclists um organized this route across America that starts in Atoria Oregon and goes to Northwork Virginia and it's around 4,500 miles long. and it's called the route bicycle route 76 and um they organized it and there was over 4,000 people that participated in it that year.

Um not the whole thing but sections. Yeah. Um so it's the 50th anniversary of it in 2026. I'm turning 50 years old. It's my 10y year anniversary of doing of getting into a bicycle touring. So yeah, I think that's going to have to be the one, man. and it's going to be longer than this one. Um, I would like to do 50 tattoos and tattoo in every state that I go through, hit 50 tattoos along the way.

Um, and encourage people to come out and join me, man. You know, I know there's other tattooers that do cycling stuff and do some touring here and there. And maybe they haven't combined the two, but I want to encourage people to to come out and join if you want. You know, no, nobody's going to have to do the whole thing. Like, if you want to go, hey, man, like I want to hit like, you know, a week with you. Yeah. And hit some shops together. I mean, that would be super rad.

And I think it would be cool to have that experience of of going through it with other people and and even if you don't tattoo, you know, like I like I said, a lot of people watch from afar and encourage like you want to come out and ride for a couple days if I'm coming through in your state or whatever, come meet me. You know, I think I'm going to have to start like really because this this one's going to take a lot of plans, especially if there's other people involved. There's a lot of moving parts. Um, so yeah, I'm going to go home, relax for a month or so, and then I think I'm going to have to start figuring out the logistics of how to make that happen and start letting people know where they could get in touch with me about getting involved in it and um and just see what happens with it, man.

Yeah, I think it would be take it to the next level, right? Yeah. and and just promoting, you know, healthy behaviors and cycling and cool tattoos and seeing the country and, you know, Yeah. turn people on to some different things if they're into it, man. And and uh have some company, man. Yeah, I think we'll be right. Do you usually shoot like uh with your iPhone or do you ever you ever been motivated to bring like along like a decent camera or anything? Uh I've always done just iPhone stuff, man.

I'm not the most technically advanced person um with everything. Um, but I I've kicked around and I've never used the drone, but I've I've looked at some stuff, man. And like the drone technology keeps getting better better and like, you know, I definitely follow other cyclists, you know, that do bicycle touring stuff and that utilize drone footage [ __ ] man. And like, you know, you could launch it and have it follow you follow. It's so cool as you roll through this epic scenic, you know, and it just captures it all, man. And they're smaller now, too. And they're cheaper and they're packable and all that kind of stuff. So that might be kind of fun.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think to have that footage, but then some part times, man, I'm like, you know, I don't want to another thing to [ __ ] Well, I don't want to focus so much like I I don't want to focus so much on the documentary part of it. The main thing is focus on what's going on, man. And you know, there's certain things that I see sometimes just being out on the road that I just kind of, huh, like you'll be, say you're riding the most scenic, epic part of Highway One, you know, in in Oregon or something, you know, and you're coming down the coast and I see these people driving in their cars and it's always the person, you know, sitting in the passenger seat and they're filming everything with their phone. Yeah. and they're staring at it through their screen instead of and it's right there in front of them, but they're watching it on their screen, which you could pull up a YouTube video and see that aspect of it.

And I just wonder how after that day is gone, how often do you actually go back and watch that footage? You don't. So you just missed out experiencing something IRL as the kids say by staring at your phone and experiencing it for your It's just it's just it's mindboggling sometimes. It's right there, man. Yeah. Like take it in pull over. Smell the air like like don't But we're we're in that culture of everything staring foam. So I mean like I don't know.

So there's the there's a both sizer, right? drone footage would be cool, but then how how much of my day am I [ __ ] dealing with this drone and editing the footage and and it and not just being like I experienced it and I'm going to let that live in my memory and and if I need to experience again, I'm going to go back there. Yeah. So, there's that aspect of of the duality of, you know, what you want to do stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of that show Alone. I don't know if you ever seen that where they they they claim they like film it all themselves, but I'm like, I don't really understand how that works.

like, you know, you're just out in the middle of nowhere. Like, I know how much work it is to always like get everything put up and put together and make sure the angle's right, you know? I'm like, yeah, maybe they take lessons before they go on the the producers like give them a little, you know, but it adds like this whole other thing. I mean, that's a like a challenge in tattooing right now, right? Where we're all of a sudden we all feel I guess not. Yeah. You know, in tattooing, we we all feel like now we have to like document everything and like share it and and it has to be good and likes, man. You got to be a director and a light lighting technician and a [ __ ] editor and Oh, get it gets exhausting.

Skits. Yeah. And all that. Yeah. Yeah. I' I'd never been that good at any of that [ __ ] No. No. And I guess, you know, maybe it works for some people and um but I don't know.

You know, sometimes I see those skits and some sometimes they're funny, enjoyable, but I mean, sometimes they're cringey and like Yeah. I don't know. Like, why don't you How many hours did you spend doing that today where you could have been like drawing and like coming up with something cool to tattoo instead, man? Like, you know, like I don't know, but that's that's that's where I just it's what I want to do, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Everyone can do what they want to do and have fun with what they're doing regardless of what it is. And um yeah, that's the uniqueness of it.

I like your pictures of you in front of the every state sign lately. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, that was when I was doing it full-time, man. I was trying to collect all 50. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How many So, have you done all 50?

No. Yeah. What are you lacking? Where where you want to get to? Um, [ __ ] So, I feel like I got So, there's two different things going on. " Right. Um, so as far as tattooing and riding, I've done like 32 or something like that. Okay.

Um, but as far as just riding through, I think it's like 38 to 40. There's two major chunks I haven't tackled and one of them's the middle of the country north. Oh, okay. North Dakota, South Dakota, um Michigan. That'd be like a summertime ride obviously, right? Like Yeah. Yeah. Um that whole area, which you know, I mean, parts of those those places are not the most exciting.

They're just a lot of corn fields and stuff like that. Um and then the other section of the country is the is the southoutheast kind of section. Um so like Georgia, the Carolas, uh Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, which in bicycle touring communities is kind of known as not the most bicycle friendly areas. Um where you will deal with people throwing [ __ ] at you. That's what I was wondering. Yeah, too is like how many how often you got in a weird [ __ ] situation where you're like I mean nothing too too crazy. You know, one of the the things that stick out is if you know I love Oregon, it's a beautiful place, but god damn, man. You got the most um highest percentage of kind of douchebags and diesel trucks that like to coal roll you as they pass and blow smoke on you.

See, I wouldn't expect that from the Pacific. I guess I think Pacific Northwest. Yeah, exactly. Everyone thinks Oregon is nothing but Portland, but it's not, man. You get outside of that, it's very rural. Um, everyone's got a diesel and it's like you almost the coal that's so [ __ ] up, dude. And you almost like you could hear those coming up and like it's going to happen and guarantee it's going to happen, dude. And like, you know, I've learned to not give satisfaction to it.

Yeah. So like I just keep my head down and let nothing happen because that dude that just did that is watching his rearview mirror and he wants to get his shits and giggles by watching you be like you [ __ ] [ __ ] and like look how mad he got. Y and then you know another aspect of me goes, "Man, you know what? " Yeah. that I kind of feel a little bit sorry that that's how he gets joy in life is to just randomly [ __ ] with somebody that he has, you know. So then I'm like whatever that's that's his life and if that's what he needs I that sucks man, you know. Um, you know, it's definitely something that you have to practice on not getting frustrated on, you know, and yeah, the go throwing [ __ ] at you or like squirting you like I've been sprayed with [ __ ] something, you know, and all these different kind.

I've never had [ __ ] thrown or or sprayed. Um, yeah, I feel like I might have had like a car or two like buzz me intentionally, come really close. That's what a weird [ __ ] up sense of humor, too. Yeah. I mean, accident you hit somebody, it's a whole different thing. Yeah. You, you know, um, but I've also gotten into the mindset, man, that like I'm not one of these people like, you didn't give me three feet. Um, I've definitely Yeah, you can't expect that, right?

No, cuz there's also times I'm riding where there is no shoulder and you have to become nerves of steel and you have to get comfortable with a car being inches away from you and that you're focusing on where you are and what you're doing and you're hoping they're doing what they need to do and you can go coexist and everyone just does what they need to do and it's going to be fun. You know, you have to put your faith in that and you can't get worked up or rate because you're the one who's ideally going out to play in traffic. Yeah. you're going to lose. Like you're my decision is, hey, I'm going to go out and play in traffic. Yeah. So, I can't get, you know, worked up when it gets uncomfortable cuz this is my choice to to do so. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm pretty comfortable with close encounters.

I've But again, I've never been hit by a car, man. Um, which Yeah, knock on wood. Um, you know, and uh, yeah, um, I'm out there doing my thing and they're doing their thing and and the universe works the way the universe works. And if it's meant to happen in a disastrous way, so be it, I guess. I don't know, man. Yeah. You ever end up in just like rolling through some sketch ass neighborhoods, too, though? Then they'll they kind of probably more look at you like you're a [ __ ] alien.

Yeah. Like all bagged up and everything and tan. What the [ __ ] is this guy going? Tired. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. That's also the one thing about following uh Google Maps sometimes on the bicycle, right?

They could give zero [ __ ] about like the neighborhood. They just tell you how to get there, man. " And then like you go, "Okay, well, I'm going to stop. " And yeah, um and just trying, you know, but the the thing is too is you don't know how if you're going deeper into a sketchy area or you're like on the outskirts, how long is this going to go? And you know, but you get through them and at the end of the day, we'll see what tomorrow has. [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I get, you know, that's what keeps you on your toes, keeps you alive, keeps you rolling, dude. Damn. Well, dude, I'm so excited to have you come by, man. I I just Yeah. Like, I want to just thank you for taking the time and Oh, yeah. Dude, we get to reconnect, man. For sure. Really really love everything you're doing.

And I I don't know. I've always been like excited and stoked to watch it from a distance. It's cool. And I like I said, you did inspire me. I got a bike. I was riding there 25 30 miles a day in the morning pretty consistently. Year to get in shape, man. maybe hitting that trail together.

Yeah, I noticed there's a lot of great trails like up in Montana. We spent some time up there and u just stunning like scenery and [ __ ] I can't imagine like spending the whole day like doing that would be so beautiful. Yeah. I mean the the the organization that established that Route 676 um is in Missoula uh Montana. It's called Venture Cyclist. Yeah. um or a bunch of cycling and they have their offices there and that that route goes through Missoula and you go visit them and they give you some some soda and ice cream and stuff and give you a little tour. Uh they're good people out there doing good work.

So that's rad. Yeah. Well, damn, dude. I hope you have a great weekend in Vegas tattooing and uh we had a fun breakfast this morning. It was Yeah. Hit the pepper mill. It was like a old school like Vegas on the strip breakfast spot with some fake trees and neon lighting and [ __ ] Yeah, it was good, man. I honestly from passing it because it's compared to everything around it, it's so like uh I don't know.

It's just no glit as glitzy and glamory as everything else. Like odd little tiny onestory building in the middle of Las Vegas Boulevard. The [ __ ] They do breakfast, right? Yeah. Well, see, um you know, like so how can we find you? How do we get a hold of you and everything? Uh, I mean my Instagram is is bicycle bobs tattoo t- and the number two with uh hash underscores in between the bicycle bobs and the tattoo. Um, and uh, yeah, I mean mostly my stuff's on there.

I'm not the best with um, checking the DMs on there. It even says in the bio, you know, please no DMs. And uh, you know, but my email information is on there. you could, you know, link to the email email button there and shoot me an email if it's, you know, something you need to get in touch with as far as getting tattooed or, you know, getting involved in the trip. But I'll be announcing more info on that as it comes to fruition. Um, yeah, and that's where I'm at. Yeah. Tattooing, riding your bike.

Yeah. You don't have much free time to text anyway. You either got bloody gloves on or you're [ __ ] riding across the country. Yeah. And I don't have a a secretary as a lot of people are these days, man. Maybe I need to get one of those. Yeah. Um but yeah, I do like the hands-on approach of responding to people um personally and starting our, you know, tattoo relationship together from the the first contact to the wrap of the bandage type of deal.

Yeah. Well, you're a very talented tattooer, too, man. I watch your stuff and you're It's fun. And I'm a I'm an like a fan of and a nerd about just illustrators these days and it and it seems a little like few and far between these days for people that are really pushing to do unique different stuff and you've always like pulled that. Yeah. I mean I like to take iconic imagery and just put a different twist on it, mash things up and uh you know do something like people like oh I know that but I've never seen it done in with that take on it you know and classic stuff and you know the whole nine and I like all the wizard biker [ __ ] too. Yeah. Yeah.

That's I love it. Well, thank you again, dude. And you guys definitely like tune tune in to everything Bob's doing. He's [ __ ] Bob Lackard, right? Lackner R. Lackner. Yeah. Yeah.

Um Yeah. And thanks for listening, guys. And we'll see you around. Support your local tattoo. Peace.

Let's get started, dude. We got uh welcome to support your local tattooer. We got the one and only [ __ ] Phil Luck in the house tonight. He's uh one of my favorite [ __ ] tattooers. And what a [ __ ] artist. What a [ __ ] artist. You [ __ ] are. You're my baby.

My baby boy. Back it up a thousand%. Phil's one of my favorites. And then we got Swarm in the how owner of Hive Tattoo here in Las Vegas, Nevada. Ex-host of the Tattoo Fight Club podcast. Yeah, we need to look those up. Yeah. Tattoo in 25 years.

Uh, November 11th. Wow. Yeah, I remember. You did my 20th for me. That's right. That's right. Yes. On me.

You did one on me, too. I don't remember what anniversary it is. It was one of the anniversaries. It was one of the anniversaries. Analog, remember? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how I remembered that.

I think I did your shark tooth, too. You did my shark tooth as well. I I think I have another tattoo from you as well. I want to say I have three tattoos from you. Did you do Dave Teol's shark tooth? Cuz I saw him the other day and he was didn't even say [ __ ] He just hold out his shark tooth. I can't remember. Nick Bones did it.

I think I don't know why he I feel like he said Nick Bones. Maybe Nick did it. Yeah. Blurry, dude. A lot of that's blurry. I don't know, man. Yeah. I'm excited to hear stories tonight.

We're going to jump in, get down to the, you know, some [ __ ] little little dirty dirty stories. Some old school [ __ ] Yeah, I'm pumped. Um Yeah, dude. So, we just kind of like Phil and I, we we were talking I mean, Phil can talk for himself, too, but we were just throwing around uh the ideas. We just wanted to get to know like your story. You grew up tattooing in Las Vegas in Vegas. So, I guess my story is pretty unique, man. I mean, I I got my start in the Bong Shop, right?

Diversity, the old head shop. You know, I got my piercing apprentichip when I was 19. I got my tattoo apprentichip when I was 20 and that was 2000. And it was just like that little diversity on the corner of Decar and Meadows. And uh that's where Oh, that's the location. Okay. Yeah. See?

Yeah. And then you did you move later on? Yeah. So 2001 I was like cutting my teeth in there and like most of all the good artists, you know, would come through Diversity on the Strip cuz there wasn't anywhere else, right? So a lot of them worked at at Diversity on the Strip and then I moved there in ' 05 and then I had three years of just pure madness tattooing there. Now were you tattooing at the one on Decar or something? I was doing both and then I was doing both on the strip. Yeah.

So I was from 2005 to 2008 I was doing both. I was it was both. And when we say tattooing on the strip, this was way [ __ ] back when there was absolutely no tattoo shops in casinos. Nowhere past that shop nowhere past that shop on the strip. So there was three tattoo shops on that corner of Sahara and Las Vegas Boulevard. Right. And then that was it. So it was Starborn, you guys, and who?

Uh yeah. So, the people who owned Diversity State owned this the shop next door and it was Tattoo Heaven. Yeah. Oh, Tattoo Heaven. Tattoo Heaven and that was way back when um like a lot of those old Pike dudes worked there like Creeper worked there and uh well, he worked across the street. Magic. I think he worked across the street with Cornfed and all them. And then there was like a I don't know, there was like a a wild dude with one tooth, you know?

I don't know. There's some pretty wild. Who was the dude that drove the Porsches? That was Charlie. That was the first time I ever saw a tattooer like make money like that. " So, he actually came from Chicago and I believe he was in the restaurant business. So, I think there's a little backup there, but still But still, he drove like bright Porsches to work every single day. Yeah.

And I was like 22 years old, you know. Was there beef amongst the shops at that point or No, I don't remember there being a lot of beefs among shops back then. I don't I don't Three shops right on top of each other. Yeah. I mean, there might two of them were owned by the same people, right? Right. Yeah. So the people who own Diversity, they own Tattoo Heaven, too.

Or like the sister did. So it's like you walked in one and didn't get the tattoo. You walked in the next one and got the tattoo. You're still getting tattooed. And was there calls? Were you guys calling the other shop like this guy's going to come in type [ __ ] Once in a while there'd be like some [ __ ] people that would come in. So they, you know, there was a back door. You just go the back door and let them know, you know?

So they just go around the back and into the back door. But wild times in the beginning of my tattoo career. Naked City. Hells yeah. Yeah. Cuz there was a few shops down that way, you know. I mean, the very first tattoo shop was still there, but it wasn't owned. It was owned by somebody else.

It was Doc's tattoo shop, and I somebody bought it from him or something, but that building's level two now. The Pawn Stars guys built some stuff over it, right? Yeah. Like a grandma's pizza and all that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually a damn good pizza spot in there, too.

Really good pizza. Yeah. I think I had it when I was there downtown for a minute. Yeah. And this neighborhood like when we say on Las Vegas Boulevard at the bottom of the stratosphere tower naked city is at that time especially to I don't know where that accent came from. Real [ __ ] wild. That's where they were filming bum fights. So all the bum fights all the bum fights were filmed down there.

Yeah. The crackhead. Uh they wanted me to do that and I told them no. They wanted me to do the forehead tattoo and I was like and I knew those guys and I I told them nah man I I don't know. I don't want to do that. Those dudes were a trip. Yeah. They asked me to do it.

So I didn't do the forehead tattoo. I think they ended up getting that done in San Diego, but I did Rufus' forearms. Really? Somebody next to you did the Knuckles, right? Yeah. Jesse girl did the Knuckles, which is the most famous ones. Like they use that as a cover of bum fights. Yeah.

And same [ __ ] Like that was like a really early days for us as tattooers. We were in these positions where you didn't say no. So then those dudes came in and they were like, "Hey, got some people. " And I was like, "Okay, well, why can't they speak for themselves? " And you and why do you guys all have video cameras? You know, I mean, NECA City was pretty bad back then, too, man. Like, and you had that What's the hotel behind the shop? Miridor, uh, the El Miridor.

That place is pretty sketchy. One of the tattoo artists had a rattlesnake in that place, man. Dude, I saw a lot of things when I was like way too young to see things like my early 20s were really wild. Like, we're talking about guys that were all like 20 or 25 years older than me and they just making so much money every day, man. And they were just spending it on the dumbest things. Like, oh, you guys were making like like the the dancers, the strippers at that time were making buku bucks and these tattooers were making the same. It was like the same because people would have to like people would stay at the stratosphere and they would have to walk by through the three tattoo shops to get to the strip to like there. I mean, the sidewalk would be packed every every night just with people walking by.

And then you had it mixed in with like all the crackheads from Naked City and all that. So, you got like bling bling and all the homeless ladies and everything walking by with no shirts on. And I had to work on the window. So like every time I'm sitting there tattooing, I'll be like I'm like 20, what am I? 25, 26 years old. And I'm like tattooing, I'm trying to concentrate and there' just be like this wild homeless lady outside the window putting her her bits on the window and pounding on the window. And then every group of drunk sority dudes or whatever, dude. Or sority girls.

And that that was like every week. I mean, it was just groups and groups of like tattooing in a fishbowl. It was it was always tattooing in a fishbowl and it was just groups and groups of just the most wild people. Great. It was great because early 2000 tourism in Vegas was nuts. Boom. So, what got you to that point essentially? What was what was the I want to be a tattooer?

When did that happen? I think I think I wanted to be a tattoo artist when I was young. I think I was really young. I I saw like some National Geographic stuff when I was like 10 or 11, I think. And I would like draw my arms. And then we had a family gathering and there was a a uncle or a guy that was married to my aunt and he had just gotten like this giant wizard on his arm right here. Like a jail house wizard. Like the face with the beard and everything.

And man, I think I was 13. I just thought I was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. It was just like, wow, I want a tattoo, you know? " And they'd laugh at me or Yeah. Riot kid. Finally, I went through like I don't know 15 or 16 guys and finally I got the tattoo apprentichip. Who did you apprentice on? So I started with the Jesse Smith, not the one that everybody knows, but the other Jesse Smith who he literally always referred to himself as the other as the other Jesse Smith.

And then he ended up going to the strip and he was part of the whole movement where all those guys left diversity and opened Heart and Huntington. So, and they were on the show and all that. The first tattoo show he and dude I did my apprentichip with him too and I has some weird stories but uh with Jesse Smith. Oh, cuz you worked in that shop, right? Well, I only started with him like 3 months and he was like, "Oh, man. Sorry. I'm moving to the other shop so I guess you know cuz I had to work there. " And lucky for me, Matt also Smith.

Oh, yeah. Jesus Matt. So, I worked with him, too. " Which You ever met Jesus Matt? I don't think I have. He's a cool dude, man. I've actually gotten back in contact with recently. He He dude, he always comments on my like tattoos, like how proud of, you know, like how proud he's just great.

I'm like, if you're coming back to Vegas, man, I'd love to like sit down and chat with you, man, about the old times. And he was always kind to me, too, when I was doing my apprentichip. Very kind dude. Very nice dude. He lives somewhere, I think, like North one of the Carolinas. dude had straight hair all the way down to his butt. Like he's a big dude. Yeah, he's a big guy.

And where is he at now? Where is he tattooed now? In the Carolinas. Okay. North or South or something. I see him like post a thing or two here and there. Yeah. So So we said we we talked sometimes which is cool.

I think that's when I asked you. I think I I got with you on Instagram about like the three names that he told me he learned from and you were like I think I know one of them or something like that. So I was trying to trace it back as far as I can, you know, lineage. Yeah. Yeah. I actually have a tattoo apprentice. It's really weird. Yeah.

I never thought I would have a tattoo apprentice ever, but I found this kid that knows people that I know and he's really super nice and so far he's doing great. Oh, nice. It's only like third months, but everything's clean. Toilets are clean, dude. Like, you know, things are tattoo. My first tattoo apprentice, I had a body piercing apprentice, and she is just absolutely killing it. Yeah. It's She's doing amazing.

And she's still with you at Hodge. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's I kind of made her like the manager cuz she like puts it down for me, you know? Yeah, piercing is crazy right now. I know.

I We get calls every day. We send them over to you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And her bedside manner and like I painted the whole room like pink for her. So very her, you know, and she's just like she's got this slew of people coming in, man. They love her.

I love her. She's great, man. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of piercing, like um so back in the day it was like when piercers wanted to get into tattooing, do you remember how resistant like and sour [ __ ] tattooers were? They did not want to hear. All I did was get picked on. That's it, man.

And of course, you know, I'm like 19, 20 years old. I got like my whole face is full of metal. You know, I got piercings everywhere, you know. Back then, we were even like sterilizing paper towels and like wearing masks before anybody like wore, you know, it's I don't want to use the word goofy, but when I look back on it, it feels a little weird to me. I was a young kid, but then everybody's picking on us always. Oh, oh man, you're just the piercer. Oh man, hey, turn that music off or I'm going to punch you. You know, like which that happened one time like a lot.

Like I remember that it was almost like the piercers they would be treated like the the [ __ ] apprentices. Oh yeah. Oh the shop rat had a better chance of getting through. Yeah. For sure. 100%. Yeah. It was crazy like the piercers were making like as much money as these guys too and it was like all right well whatever bro.

That was like our ear our early like um ex I don't know exposure to like how sour tattooers can be like the older tattooers can be. I I mean they they were really sour back then. Super well and physical. Like they would get to the point where they were physical with you every time. I got punched in the leg. I got like manhandled. I got like thrown outside of the shop. Like and you didn't go like cry to somebody about it, dude.

You like you didn't say anything about it. You didn't like go to the boss and be like me, you know? Like it's like you just dealt with it, you know? You just dealt with what happened. I think it was because uh I mean for my case like I I I wasn't going through that as dramatic but I was just [ __ ] in love with tattooing and I and that was how you got into it. There was no other way, right? So you just dealt with the craziness and the whatever. I just feel like you wanted to do it so bad back then.

So you would just put up with Absolutely. 100%. Whatever it It's definitely not the same anymore. It seems like people put up with a lot less, but like we put up with a lot. Like when Nick's kid was apprenticing, like we'd be telling him stories. " But like there's a lot different back then. I wonder about that a lot. Would this current generation be able to make it through the [ __ ] that we went?

Also, let's not forget we went through a severe apprenticeship. Apprenticeships these days are so quick. There's nothing to learn. You know, like I talk about that all the time. I had to learn this, this, this, this, this, and this. And these days, all you got to do is just focus on learning to tattoo. So I mean the the duration of an apprenticeship is a fraction of what it was when we started, you know. Well, and you got so much information, right, these days it's like, yeah, you have access to it.

So why would you put up with that [ __ ] You can see things that we would have put up with that [ __ ] if if we would have had access now. And that's the thing is we had to deal with the gatekeepers because they had that information. These days when I hear about, oh, the gatekeepers, the gatekeepers, it's like what what are you dealing with gatekeepers for? You got you got YouTube right there. Like what do you need their information? You could become a master. I mean, there's a kid on there like breaking down every tattoo he did for a week and how much he charged and how much he got paid and you're like, "Oh, that's weird. What?

Why? " The the amount of money thing is weird, but that's like a a generational thing on social media. They share how much money they make. And like I was always taught you don't [ __ ] Oh, I watch tattooers legitimately counting their money on Instagram these days. And I'm just like, "Bro, you're the first guy I'm robbing. " No, I know you didn't learn from all these poor rock rappers that got [ __ ] shot in public cuz they showing their money back and everything. Oh, there's just some things you just don't share, you know? There's some things you just keep to yourself, you know?

But but you're right. It might be a generational thing. I'm not going to let these girls do that though, man. I'll be following them on Instagram, you know? You grow up learning that that's the way you do it. So, it's just natural. Yeah. What a trip, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. But it is a good point though. Like I like you and I definitely we all wouldn't have done what we went through, I think, if there was an option. I mean, I still love it, man. I don't care how many people do it. Well, let me ask you this. Yeah.

If you if you were an 18-year-old Jay Swam now, would this been interest would this business even be interesting to you? I'm not sure cuz I, you know, I didn't really like have Instagram or anything. Like, I picked what I wanted to do and I just stuck with it. Yeah. I didn't have any like all these options. So, who knows? I I I really don't know. Probably cuz I was like just really into it.

And I feel like there are kids now that are getting tattoos and they're really into it. And honestly, we're getting to the age now where it's like, bro, a couple years I'm going to be 50. You know, how much longer I can tattoo until the end, but like am I going to be tattooing like I used to be tattooing? Am I going to be doing four or five tattoos a day? It's not going to happen, man. Right. Getting older. Can't lean over, right?

Starting to not be able to see that. Great. You know, you see good, but it's not like it's like it's you're getting older. You're feeling You're feeling your age. I'm feeling mine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I saw like all the fine line stuff come in and I [ __ ] struggled with it because I physically couldn't accomplish it because I couldn't see really good. The boys over here. I just got some new glasses so I can get readers built in. What do you call the the tri focal things? You got that going on? Well, not these yet, but I just got the call. They're due. I pick them up tomorrow.

Yeah. So, maybe my fine line career will take off, you know? Like maybe I can get in there and start crushing it. You have a thing like Rick Morannis and like honey I struck the kids, you know, magnifying glasses. That's it. That's it. I do this. I can see the edge of that needle so good, man.

Don't worry about that. But I guess it's like comes to time at like a age where it's like I you got to start passing a little bit on, you know? You got to start being nice to the kids, man. They'll be nice to you and they're 20 years down the line. Hope hopefully, you know. Dude, so back back to like the crazy [ __ ] at that shop. Like dude, there was also some sketchy sketchy vibes there, right? I mean I mean there were sketchy artists, man.

There was dudes that like I said, there was a dude that came from somewhere. He had one tooth, man. Guy had one tooth. Had the the cigarettes in his thing right here. He was a tattoo artist. I was like 20. I was terrified of this dude, man. And he had the marks, you know, like from whatever year they used to still test the tattoo.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. from checking testing new inks, testing colors or testing them before he lay into somebody. So they like make sure it went in good. Okay, I'm ready to go. I don't know if I've ever seen that in person. I have friends who would would test on their hands and then they still have, you know, just lines down their hands.

Whoa. This guy had them from, I would say, like here to about here. He had like a a section of dots. Man, I wish I could remember his name, but he seriously had one tooth, dude. like just one front tooth, but a lot of tattoos. I made up for it. A lot of crazy tattoos. And I I wish when I was younger, I thought about taking pictures of some of these guys' tattoos.

And now when I look back on it, I totally wish I would have just so I could have I wish I would have taken more pictures. I bet. Yeah. Period. Yeah. " And they're right. Well, that's the beauty of these days. I mean like when I when I started you were still using you still have to bring your film to the you know so I mean you take a hundred pictures of a tattoo you go to develop them and find out you ain't got no pictures of that tattoo or you maybe get one out of a roll and you're like well this is worth would be like on one side but you could get it clear here so I'd cut the picture down the middle and then put the tattoo together so you could get the non-glare parts out and I remember making like I don't know.

It's like a [ __ ] layered film, you know, like layered pictures in your portfolio. Yep. Cuz I was like, it's just too easy. Like all different sizes, right? Like glue them in there. Yeah. It was like craft crafting. Yeah.

I always remember like taking pictures of like a really nice tattoo and then like getting the pictures and being like, "Well, I'll never get to see that tattoo. " Walk through or come through again. True story. But yeah, it was crazy back then. And it was crazy down there. And I'm sure all those tattoo artists that work down there all have crazy stories, you know. Well, the the prostitution thing was huge here, dude. It was real crazy.

Like I remember, you know, when you're really young, you come in and you can't turn down the tattoo or your boss is going to tell you to I could never turn down a tattoo. Especially where I was at, dude. No way, bro. Those they they'd be real bad if people How many people you think were in that shop on the strip? Oh, we we had u Okay, so there's five stations, two shifts. So there was or six maybe there was between 10 and 12 tattoo artists and then there was three piercers and the these guys all tattooed man I mean there would be days where like five guys would all do like five to six tattoos a piece. Yeah. And they were pulling like two grand a day.

Yeah. I can't remember the exact numbers man but people had money. I mean they had hobbies. I remember you specifically telling me that you you had like at one point in time at the peak of your awesomeness or young awesomeness was you make 2500 and you spend all of it usually all of it because this is how it would go. m. We would I mean we'd be partying all night, right? We'd be drinking beers and people were doing [ __ ] out of their tool boxes, man. Like and they were doing it with their clients.

" go to the strip club until I don't know some god awful hour like the sun's coming up. Go home for three hours. Once in a while there'd be like an afterparty thing you'd go to. The sun would be up and then there'd be like this pool thing you'd go to for a little while. Go home, take a nap, go back in the shift, do it again. Three or four days in a row. That's why I say I can't like really remember my 20s, man. It was It calmed down right when I came to work for you.

That's what it was like coming off. I remember like in the story. Yeah, there was structure at 21 and it was it was nice. It was good for all of us. All of us. All of us. And we even had a great time, you know, like we had a blast. Blast.

We had our nights of drinking and stuff like that. But but yeah, I I like that's why I was looking to get out of there cuz it was just too nuts. I mean, I remember, you know, you brought a prostitution. m. and he brings three of his prostitutes with him and he's the pimp, hands down. You know, he is. " And I'm like, "All right, man. " However much it was, 100, 150 bucks a piece.

I get to the last girl and I'm tattooing her. And she's balling her eyes out, man. And I'm like sitting there doing this tattoo. I'm like, "Hey, uh, you you okay? " I look up at the dude. " I was like, "Okay, bro. " You know, and just finish. But that was definitely like one of those times that really bummed you out.

Bummed me out. It stuck out to me. And I was like one of those times where I was like, "I got to get the [ __ ] out of here, man. It's it's time to get out of here. You know, even in our first shop, dude, we were right there off of the the strip, you know, running parallel. And that was like the cab drivers run. And uh it was it was pretty sketch, dude. Like a like a a lot of really uncomfortable moments in that shop at night with guys that come in and they are very just straight gangsters, dude.

Like the real real deal. And they're just like, I want this done right now. You're like, you haven't had anybody walk in in [ __ ] like all day. " Um, just you're just trying to do a good job and then they're standing right over you and they're some of the most intimidating [ __ ] I ever met in my whole life. Scary, man. We had the drunk people all the time at Diversity. You know, I have whatever this guy's name from, we'll just say Ohio. So, we're talking about Ohio and he'd be like whatever 26 beers deep and man, I want a picture of my wife's ass tattooed right here, right on my arm.

And you're just like, "All right, dude. " Yeah. This town is not known for good decisions. That's That's the issue. " But Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was have a tattoo till the sun came up.

m. finally get to leave, you know? Feel like you learned a lot about life in general about that because I feel just growing up in Vegas and then working on the strip. I think I learned a lot more than a lot of people do. Yeah. It's just meeting so many different people from so many different uh you know lifestyles and everyone comes to Vegas, you know, everyone comes to Vegas and intoxication levels and you're trying to control the situation, but it's kind of more or less like you're just trying to keep it [ __ ] alive and like I just need to get this job done and you guys I don't know how many times you had it happen to where you had two people that are just like in a crazy brutal fight and then they're getting each other's names tattooed on each other and They're drunk and angry at each other and and you're convinced you're going to do a cover up as soon as you're done doing the name.

Yeah. " And you're like, "Get them in, get them out. " I'm over there trying to like make it fancy because I really want to learn my script. " And I feel like you learn how to pick and choose your battles, you know? Like you're in this tough ass situation. Heaven forbid you spell the [ __ ] name wrong. Yeah, dude. Oh, dude.

That's a whole other section of talking about like and I was working with older dudes too when I got brought down to the strip and you know I'd see them just bang out a quick name you know not take any time and I'd do the same thing. I'd sit there and draw it and they come over and be like, "Dude, why are you wasting your time? Just print that [ __ ] out. " You know, that reminds me of another story. I had a couple uh one night. It was like 11 or 12:00 at night and this couple comes in and they're like, "Hey, we just met each other at the nightclub last night. We're like in love. " And I'm tattooing this girl, this dude's name, and she's like calling her family like, "I'm at the love of my life.

" And this guy's just sitting in the corner just smiling at me. And I'm like, I dude, this is this is too much, bro. This is too much. I was like, "Are you guys sure you don't want to get these tattooed in color? Pink. " Yeah. When you're working with those kind of people and on the strip, it's two questions only, dude. Yeah.

Well, I think what do you want? Do you got money? The other big issue is the fact that when when people come to Vegas, they genuinely believe what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. So, I feel like when people come here, they act extra stupid. Yeah. You know, so yeah, working in a tourist spot like that had to have been absolute [ __ ] murder because you're not just dealing with the local idiots. You're dealing with idiots being shipped in from everywhere. Madness.

And they and they used to make them pay for the tattoos up front. So that was Yeah, because there was so many issues. Yeah, there was so many issues. " And then, you know, it's 300 bucks and you got to go sit there and wait until he's done with his three tattoos before you. It just be like a whole bunch of people and they're already paid off at that point. " Like, uh, obviously. Yeah. Do whatever you want.

But that puts so much more pressure on you. Like, if I'm knowing that there's three heads that already paid for the tattoos that I have to do in the next couple hours, that's pressure, dude. I wouldn't eat, dude. We wouldn't eat. Like, we just eat later. You wouldn't do anything. You just just sit there, clean up, set up, do it again, clean up. And we had towards the end we started like having people help there where they like clean up and set up for you.

And then you obviously have to tip them out and stuff. So that that became a little more helpful like when you were three to five people deep, you know? Yeah. Can you at least bring in like a half of a just something real quick? I'll eat in the bathroom, you know? I don't even care cuz there's no no not like a break room or like a drawing room or anything crazy like that, you know? Yeah. This is all preiad obviously.

So we're just looking way preipad. We didn't get an iPad till 2010, right? I don't know. But was it later than that? Yeah, I think later than that. I think it was later than that. " Yeah, that's right. I'm drawing on this.

I was like like on the like on the computers, you know, like this little flat computer. It took us by storm when we were all together. I love it. As soon as I touched that thing, I was like, "Oh, yeah. " Yeah. Yeah. I still haven't figured it out. I expect that from you.

I expect that from you, Phil. I love mine every day. I like I won't even leave it in my backpack in the car. Like, dude, if I go to the grocery store, I'm like taking my backpack. Also from the '9s. You don't leave your CDs in your car either. No. No.

You know, it's funny. Mimi just got a car. It has a CD player in it. Yeah. Uncle Joey gave her a car, you know. Oh, that's cool. So, we've gone last week. Get it registered and we've been every week anyway.

She's got a permit. She's got a permit, dude. Oh, yeah. So he gave her a car. Sick uncle move, but it's got a CD player. " I'm going to give you this rack of CDs. " I'm like, "Just listen to them. " Yeah, exactly.

Like you might like something in there. Watch one get stuck in there. My sister had a Bruce Springsteen [ __ ] album stuck in her Malibu. I don't know if it was Bruce Springsteen. No, it was uh was it the Red Hot Chili Peppers? I think it was the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I'm pretty sure it was just stuck in there and it would just play. Sorry, Courtney.

You'll have to She'll have to She'll have to fix us on that one. But the Boo. Yeah, the Malibu. Yeah, I believe it was Red Hot Chili Peppers that was stuck in there. I remember her telling me that. That's That's pretty funny, man. Did you have any other jobs before you got into like the piercing thing? Just kid jobs.

Like just like I worked at Bonnie Springs, Old Nevada when I was like 15 and a half. Remember this? Yeah. Yeah. I used to cowboy on the weekends up there and like run the the wax. That had to have been a [ __ ] blast. It was cool cuz the cowboys would call me, you know, they were drunk up there, those cowboys up there and they call you out and shoot you on the thing. So that was like cool.

I did that on the weekends and I worked at like the Meadows Pet Store. Okay. And uh You never worked at Mr. Rags? I don't know why. For some reason, I felt like I did like I worked at Mr. Rags. Yeah.

No, no, just the Meadows Pet store. And then um I had the best summer of my life when I was 17. I got to be a lifeguard at Wet N Wild. Awesome. It was the best summer of my life, dude. I still say that to this day. You know, those are like badass jobs. Like the kids that were young and that had were in that position were like the badass.

It was a 1996 or 1997. Yeah. I wasn't going to take my shirt off, so I wouldn't take I didn't care, man. I didn't care. I would just stand there. What was that like raging rapids or whatever it was where they came down the tube and was in the pool and I would just be standing there like with my sun block, my stupid hat on. I just like pushing girls by in tube. I'm like this is the greatest day ever, you know, 17, you know.

And then I think I worked at U-Haul for like a short stint. Oh, I did work at the movie theater for like a quick minute at the the two movie theater at the Gold Coast. Okay. My dad was a foreman at the Gold Coast. So, you kind of had regular jobs though before you got into the industry. So, were you like a more responsible? Definitely, dude. Yeah.

I never called in or anything. I mean, I feel like I had pretty good work ethic when I worked for you. Yeah. You know, so I think I always had a good work ethic. God, I can't talk. Work two sips of wine. Okay. Um a work ethic.

Even when I was young, man, I always showed up. Um, people asked me to work. I see a lot of it in my daughter now. She's she gets like upset if she can't like cover for somebody. She's like really responsible. I'm like, man, I was just like that, you know? I was always just showed up, you know? You just Yeah.

You I mean, you're just genuinely a good dude. Oh, thanks, buddy. I appreciate that. You always like follow through. Yeah. Yeah. Treat people good. You'll be treated good.

That's how it always worked out for me. Yeah. Even when dudes were punching me in the leg and Yeah. treating me like [ __ ] With kindness, man. Just killed him with kindness, man. Like, still showed up the next day. [ __ ] him with a smile. Yeah.

You're not going to scare me so bad out of this gig that I'm not coming back tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that heart and that determination and drive that I think, you know, got you through it. And I think that's what gets a lot of tattoo art, maybe all three of us, you know, any tattooers that actually want to be a tattooer. You will become a tattooer. Will you be good at it?

You don't know. Probably. Hopefully. What's crazy is you don't even have to be that good if you just show up and be kind. I'll say it a thousand times to this day. I would rather get a a mediocre tattoo from a nice guy than a beautiful tattoo from an [ __ ] that's wearing headphones. [ __ ] that, dude. Are you kidding me?

Experience. It's all in the experience. And that's what blows my mind when I ask a customer with a beautiful tattoo. " And it's like, "You missed the whole [ __ ] point. It was all in the experience. What do you mean some guy? " I know. I I became so dude still to this day so many of the people that I speak to on a regular basis that uh like a big part of my life are people that I met through tattoos.

Everybody all my friends all the greatest people I know I met them they sat in my chair at one point. Yeah. Very rare I have like a few people that didn't come and get tattooed but like I'll be at a gathering with all my friends and I just look around like wow I did that tattoo that tattoo that tattoo. I I mean I even you just sitting down right here. " We spent a lot of time together, man. Me and you used to hang out a lot, man. So, um yeah, I tattooing is magical, though. There's still days that I tattooed today that like it's magical, man.

I went in, I hung out with two people that I think are cool as [ __ ] I I did my best that I could do for you, the brightest colors, the cleanest lines, whatever that I can give to you. We had a great conversation and I went home and I can pay bills, man. It's it's really it's really a cool job, you know. It's really a it's a it's a ma, like you said, it's a magical thing, man. Tattooing. I I still I still feel it on the daily when I do it, you know? Just basic gratitude, dude. You know, just wake up and be It still blows my mind that these things stay, you know?

Like I'm still caught on that. Like to me like when when I first got into tattoos I was like but it stays like and that's still amazing to me. Yeah. Unless you use the wrong black. I disappearing tattoo. I don't know how the [ __ ] it happened but you were there with me, right? Like brawash story, right? Yeah.

I [ __ ] did a full week of tattooing and it I don't know what the [ __ ] I I I remember this up enough or something like 25 years and all was it was a pre-cut gray. I think I don't [ __ ] I feel like we were trying something new or something or or it was like at the time maybe there I do feel like this was happening the there was uh sketchy tattoo supplier guys coming around that were getting their [ __ ] sketchy places that were labeled as say dynamic but I don't think it was dynamic but it it [ __ ] looked black like I when you were putting it in it felt natural black it felt right I I didn't even notice. " And I did this [ __ ] thing from neck to butt cheeky, like a spine tattoo. I remember this tattoo. Yeah. Yeah. So then I was mortified, dude.

" The heart starts racing. Oh my god. " And then I was just stopped everything. thing. And this is like I was booked out like eight months in advance, you know, like five days a week, dude. And I literally had to just straight halt the train, call all those people in, ask them about their tattoo, can you please come by? Can I look at your tattoo? And even like some of them just didn't even think anything of it.

And I was like, um, just so you were clear, like, yeah, I [ __ ] like I don't want to say I [ __ ] it up, but I [ __ ] it I'm going to take responsibility for this and I will fully like unfortunately redo your tattoo on your ribs or whatever. That sounds horrible, dude. I I don't even think you redid all of them. I think some people just never even came back. I know. I kept trying and like a week or something. I remember that. Scared and I just remember that just now.

Like I totally forgot about Oh, that's the worst feeling though. There were some sketchy ass suppliers in Vegas back then. There was so many. I just don't understand how I miss how I didn't like see it, you know? how I I it was at the peak of my business ever, but I I don't know. I don't think that's a mistake. Dark gray can look black, you know? It must have just been something in the bottle or who knows, man.

But that mortified, dude, messing up any tattoo or spelling something wrong or put some on something on upside down, tears off your life. And when you realize it, man, your heart is in your stomach. Yeah. And you do not sleep that night. It's just because you just try so hard for those things not to happen. But yeah, you're human. Things happen. Like stuff does happen.

That's why it's check it three times with spelling anymore and it's like look at it again, look at it again. Oh, is this your nation's flag? Make sure it's all I want everybody in the room to spell check that [ __ ] you know? Like every [ __ ] word. I literally remember doing that. Like after I did it one time, I spelled bot B. I can't even spell it still, but I spelled it wrong. And luckily it was easy fix.

I made the U into an A, like a lowercase A. But I had a dude spell his own daughter's name wrong one time. I've had that as well. I've had that as well. And then he tried to blame me. " I actually had his wife come in flipping [ __ ] And thank God at that point we were doing so many names that we keep a book. They'd have to write down the name. " And I'm like, and she's going bananas.

" And I was like, "Before you say a word, outside. You ain't beating his ass in the waiting room. " On top of it, maybe you should have given your baby a name that was [ __ ] spellable. You know, that's what I said. Cuz at that point, I was like, "You came at me. " You know, dude, I second guessed my own daughter's name. My wife named her. So, and I was like I was still Eloise is L O U I S.

And I remember like before I had kids, this dude being like, "Hold on, hold on one second, bud. " Like in my head like judging him. " O, you Yeah. Our youngest daughter's middle name is Quinn, but it's it's Vietnamese, right? So it's qu y, you know, I think I think that's right. " So, I can understand I can totally understand that. Yeah. So, Phil and I were talking too earlier about like um your style, the style that you developed with um when you had that color palette.

Yeah. Like with the the red and the the gray and the yellow brown. Yeah. Really gone back and used. Yeah. Yeah. Really gone back to that. There was like a minute there I kind of like you veered off.

I had a weird time in my life not too long ago, man. I went through a thing, you know, and I think everybody does, you know, and there was a time where I was, you know, sitting outside your shop with everything I owned and I didn't have a job and I didn't have a place to live. I had moved out of that girlfriend's house I had and I didn't know what I was going to do, man. So, um, when I went to work in downtown, I just started doing more traditional tattoos and kind of fell off that. But I've really gone back to what I like, like just movies. I meant like the record I just just Yeah, it was awesome. I just photographed it yesterday. Yeah, I that's I just love it.

I just I felt like you were really on to something with that. Yeah, I think I I loved it. I felt like it was you. It was like I mean you came from like more new school when you started with us and then you you started really developing this like love for uh traditional. Yeah, I give that to Phil. Phil Phil showed me all of that, man. You know, like then like Phil Yeah. But you developed your own unique touch and style and color like you said.

It was very few That's the thing. There's very few traditional text. Yeah. There's one up there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, it's like the the brown the like the deep like the brown red. There's few things you can do in traditional to set yourself apart. Like what can you possibly do? And I feel like there's only a hand handful of tattooers that I've seen pull it off. I really appreciate that like cuz that drives me crazy to see the same thing over and over. I know. Yeah. And like I see I even have like newer tattooers in my shop and they're just doing the same thing, man.

" Like, "Okay, you're into hockey, man. " They're like, "I was into movies, right? I'm still into movies. " '90s pop culture that you put into it. It was so good. Yeah, I love that. I I still have a list that I need to do. It's just about finding time to do it, running a shop, raising kids.

I get those 10 minutes or 20 minutes. to get my iPad. I'm sitting at the table. " So, it's it's pretty it's pretty neat to like throw it together really really fast, you know? Yeah. I appreciate that. No, I watched it happen, dude. I watched you build out like your whole entire wall with the grid and then buy the frames.

We installed them all blank and then you just slowly started filling them in, which was a fun like it was like a mission that looked you in the eyes every single day. You needed to call it the wall of doom. Yeah. The wall of doom. The wall of doom. Because it was empty, right? It had one. It had one or two in there.

And I was like, I'm gonna fill these all. And it took me two years almost to the day. Took me two years almost to the day to fill that wall. Yeah. Cuz I felt like one took a couple of months. Of course, no iPad putting the drawing together. So, it was always like a mission to get that flash sheet together. And that wall was beautiful.

Yeah. You got to come by the shop. We got a bunch of them now. You got to come come check out the shop, dude. I'm about to build two more walls in the shop, you know, have like the half-traditional thing going, but still leave enough room for people to be unique and do their own. I mean, I have one guy that does like realism and he all he does is tattoo fake skin for his art. Yeah. And it's it's crazy, man.

It's so sick. It's like insane. It's beautiful. And he frames them. And I'm like, that is just such a cool thing. I'm like glad you're doing something. Yeah. The last art show I came into your shop, I was like you you showed me that.

I was like, I don't know. I never even seen anything like that before. I don't even That's so crazy. Pretty wild. Yeah. And And I love how like he's using his time, his downtime like you were. You're using your down time to tattoo or to produce, you know, and that's uh I don't know. I just always I love those days where we were all together and every singing the second we weren't tattooing, we were painting.

remember we would pull out our paint stuff on purpose because every time you would pull it out and set it up get a walk in tattoo and it was like we would do it, you know, when you get ready to paint or when you get ready to tattoo a friend, someone walks through the door immediately. Y those were really great years, man. I really I think about those years constantly. I really think about those years constantly, man. And how like they helped me become who who I am, you know? They they really did. And and I'll even throw it out there like you and like your parents help show me like how to be a dude and like be a dad and like decorate my own space. You don't like something, man, throw some shelves up, you know, and like make it your own.

Like I never had that like growing up. It was always like crappy apartments that nobody like did anything. So like they I really learned a lot in in those years. You know what I mean? Like it like learning how to you know be a dad, be a dude. And then of course, like you guys brought up, like just how about the fact that we all got along so well. Like that's so we were [ __ ] legit family. Like we look I looked forward to seeing you guys every day, you know?

That's so rare in a tattoo shop. It never felt like going to work. It was like I can't wait to get there today, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That was a great crow. Yeah. Yeah.

It was a good time, too. Yeah. It's a It's a difficult thing to build, you know. It took like I think I was thinking about it the other day. I was like I think it took me like 15 years to get to the point to where I had a decent group of people. Yeah. Like a good good like solid group. Yeah.

I've been through a few now. Like I totally I understand now. It really takes a lot to put the right people together. A lot of patience and burying your pride at times. Uh keeping your mouth shut and just trying to get [ __ ] like keep the [ __ ] machine moving, you know, like and not let your emotions get in there. That's the thing right there. It's like you got to really take your time and be um like a owner and a boss. You can't can't get your feelings involved like, "Hey man, I love you to death, dude, but I have to do this, you know, or like I have to hire this person or I have to have this next person come in because I can't keep it the same like this because this is not working for for me.

It's not a good partnership, you know. " Cheers. Yeah. Cheers. That's why I grab the bottle for you. Got to get Phil. You got to bring Phil by. Bring him by, man.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it's it was a is it's a very important thing. Uh you know, the the vibe in your shop and who you bring in. Um and it's not [ __ ] easy, dude. And it's it's the hands down hardest thing I've ever done.

And it's been incredibly rewarding, but incredibly asskicking and embarrassing and humbling and [ __ ] like I'm Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I spent like time and I was doing that [ __ ] too when I was like 22 and I had a hot head ass dad that I needed to always try to keep out of the [ __ ] conversation with people, you know, and like and try to keep us like that would have been hard, man. That that would have been really difficult for me because I wouldn't be able to It's good. It's just me because then I make the decision. Totally. You know what I mean? And and then it's done. I don't have to partnerships and everything like dude, we did a whole episode about partnerships and partnerships with your family are two completely different animals, too.

That's true. True. You can't fire your parents. Yeah, we learned that for years. And everybody always thought that I was the kid that uh just worked at my parents' tattoo shop. I've actually heard that a few times later. I always tell people I always correct people. Somebody said it to me the other day.

I'm like, "No, no, that's not how it work. " And then at the bottom and their son works there, too. Awesome. Yeah. You're like, I [ __ ] what the [ __ ] And know and and it bothered me at the beginning and then it's just it's like talk about like swallowing your pride and like [ __ ] ego. You just got to just keep moving, dude, and just keep doing like whatever. I don't really care what the [ __ ] you think. Like I was trying to teach my kid this the other day.

It's like the sooner you can get over being concerned what anybody else around you [ __ ] thinks, then life is so much easier. And that doesn't mean you're a bad person. You know, you're just you can't take into consideration everyone's [ __ ] opinion. You know, apply that to tattooing, too. Yeah. I don't care what a group of tattoo artists think about my tattoos. No, you can't. We we I think we all set out to impress specific tattooers.

Yeah. You know, and any anyone past that really didn't didn't show up on our radars. Yeah. You know, and sometimes you meet those people and then your your outlook changes unfortunately, you know, and like how many times have you met a hero or somebody you looked up to and they were just shitty to you and you're just like, "All right, you know what, man? That's cool. " You know, I don't it's all good. I've been getting this far by myself. I've been getting this far alone.

I'm doing just fine for myself. You know, we were talking too about how, you know, you were going through a lot of [ __ ] at the time and you ended up out on outside and I um and you you had broke up with that girl, you know, and like to me like the most important healthy thing in my life that I've ever ever experienced is having the right partner. Oh man, it is so huge. It's so incredibly important. It is huge. I mean, I wouldn't I don't think I would have opened my shop without Jen, like without my wife. She's like a backbone, man. Kicks my ass.

tells you [ __ ] do that. Do that, man. What are you scared of? What's the worst that can happen that you're in the same place that you're in today? So that's it's I think having a partner that backs you up is so super important in in any in a healthy manner, you know, healthy manner. " I don't want to dodge any more like milk jugs or anything. You know what I mean? Yeah.

both sides. Both sides, man. Oh, boy. Like, I don't know. I just feel like uh I feel like all three of us are in a really good position right now, you know? It's like having a level-headed human around you and that can help you through those difficult times. Like when dude, when I was younger, like I would literally just go home either to a crazy girlfriend or a girlfriend that was crazy and not home like I don't know where you're at or or at 4:00 or 5 in the morning like, "Hey, where you been? " Yeah.

or just like go home by yourself after that rough ass day where you just do not understand how to communicate with these people and you do not understand how to get people on board or or why are they so awful and like or is it me you know and you I just dude I literally remember sitting on the edge of my bed as a grown ass man just like [ __ ] crying like not telling a soul and then going back into work in the morning like hi all right everybody let's do it come on guys you know and then someone walks in right past you and doesn't say [ __ ] hi and doesn't have really good at that too. Like you got to you got to put on that face for every tattoo, you know? So I feel like we we we were really good at being, you know, [ __ ] about what what what we were going through, you know, and we were professionals at doing that [ __ ] because we Yeah.

We took pride in giving that experience and getting to know those people was just as important as doing the best [ __ ] tattoo you possibly can. Every time. Yeah. Every time. That's that's part of it is just getting to know people and like putting that face on and how how are you today? Like what do you do for work? Like you know, hey, you got big plans for the weekend. You know, I'm I'm about to hurt you.

This is going to suck. I'm sorry, but like let's try to get through this together. You try to make them laugh or whatever. And like tell them some jokes, tell them the worst story, worst tattoo you ever did. " You know, or they love it. Yeah. Yeah. Or like the worst tattoo I ever saw get done was I think I told you guys before, but the seven dwarfs shoveling [ __ ] from a guy's [ __ ] You know, wheelbarrows and gas masks.

This guy came in. He came in and asked and they asked me to do it and I was like, "I'm about to leave. " I tell that story about that tattoo uh weekly. weekly. This gu was dead set. He must have like won a bunch of money while he was in Vegas or something and he was just like, "Today's the day. I'm going to get that tattoo. I've been telling everybody.

" All seven of them, dude. All seven of them. What a almost the inside almost all the way to the outside, dude. Wow. Gas mask and all. Like just shovely smelly [ __ ] Like I remember so many of Phil's [ __ ] up tattoo stories, but for some reason right now I don't have any that pop into my head about you. Oh, I got Do you remember any about me? Uh, I just remember like one like when we were at the shop like the one that like gave you a meltdown was like one of those Jesus tattoo things.

Oh yeah. Like the perspective one. Uh oh yeah. Yeah. I remember that day for some some reason. I remember that day. I think Joey brings that up a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't want to do it at all. " So he, you know, it was one of those [ __ ] ass crazy ones. It's like Jesus on the cross and his hand is the [ __ ] other hand. And then I had to draw I do remember cuz Joey and I like I don't know. I just remember being just distraught about it. Not like at anybody other than myself because I kind of got I don't know. I pressured myself into doing it or whatever and then I did it and I just [ __ ] I don't know it just didn't I I thought it was going to turn out good and I put my all into it and I was like kind of excited about it but kind of hated it all at the same time.

Mind you, I I felt like the tattoo was fine. It was passable. You just tell he was like what? Not into it. You know, I'm pretty sure you got done and the guy like had some stipulations about it or something like that. thought he was like didn't like it or something and then we were just like yeah and I'm like it's a [ __ ] pencil like I drew the drawing and I put it on you. I mean I wanted to just be like the [ __ ] idea is terrible bro. It's like one of those meme tattoos and like why are you doing this but and I just I didn't execute it well.

I remember a customer that used to drive you up a wall and I remember one day you were like that's it. I'm gonna give it to him this time and what are you gonna do? " And you felt terrible before, during, and after about it. " And he pulls his sleeve up and I'm like, "That's him. " You know who it was? I think I think Yeah, it was the Disney tattoos. Yeah, it was that guy, wasn't it? Yeah, he was like he was a [ __ ] bully and like he was like a real consistent good client, but he was also like I'm so consistent and I'm so good that you need to do this for me.

And he was just very like abrasive and I was just I think yeah, I finally remember breaking up with him like and it wasn't like No, you had to break up with him and when I called it out I was like those are Austin Spencer tattoos. He was like how'd you know that? And I was like I ain't saying another word. I ain't saying another word. He was [ __ ] massive. Big dude. Big dude. Yeah.

Yeah. You see Austin's tattoo from across the room, though. " You know what I mean? I spotted one across an amusement park. When I left Studio 21 and moved to Pennsylvania, I was like I was blown away at how few good tattoos I saw in Pennsylvania. And we were at this place um can't even remember the name of the amusement park and there was a woman with this beautiful tattoo. She was good 30 40 feet away. " It must have been a bunch of teal in it.

Feels like tons of blues. Tons of blues that were just solid. Light blue. Just solid, bro. It's perfect. Yeah. Why was that? Like that became my thing for like 20 [ __ ] years.

It was Nobody else can do it. Everybody just wanted it. We could try. Nobody else can do it. Blue. That's the truth. Yeah. Yeah.

I struggled with blue for a long time. I still I hate blue, dude. I hate blue. I hate purple. If I never have to see him or touch him again, it I would be Isn't that weird that there's just some colors that are so much tougher to get in? I had a purple tattoo today, man. I hated every second of it, you know? It's like, why why purple?

There's like no mid and purple. It's like dark and light. And you always have a mess with one color, too. You ever noticed that? Like every time I'd have a mess, it'd be orange. Like I'd be like, how did I get I didn't even use orange today. Why is it on my pants? I don't know why I just see lavender smears.

I'm like, "Get the [ __ ] lavender off. I can't stand the lavender. You can can never get it off. You just keep rubbing it. It's only got a tattoo with a wet paper towel. You're like, "Dude, this is gross. " Like, great, great day. Awesome.

Love it. Oh god. Yeah. I remember Phil's I I don't know if we already talked about it, but that his butthole tattoo that girl brought in all the pictures of the butthole. Oh yeah. So weird, dude. The more the more I let her know that I wasn't into it, the more she just like I feel like that was her stick right there. Right.

Was Yeah. That was her stick was to make me feel uncomfortable. And boy, did she make and finally I was just like, I am not tattooing around your ass. Like it's just not happening. We didn't get a lot of those at at at your at your shop, but I felt like a little far off the strip. It wasn't like when I tattooed on the strip and it was just like maniac after maniac that just wanted the weirdest like tattooing was still booming like crazy. You know, we opened up that shop in 2006 and we were 2 miles off the boulevard. This is before Uber and all that stuff.

So the cab drivers were still kind of worried. There's also a tenth of the tattoo shops that they're Do you remember Do you remember the cab driver uh hustle where where they'd like get money? Yes. From the tattoo shop. I don't I don't know. They would Yeah. The strip clubs would give them 20 bucks. Yeah.

Are you Uber friendly? 100 I think cab driver. Are you cab driver friendly? That was it. And I used to have to come out and beef with them because I was like, "No, the [ __ ] got in your car. They have appointments. " But there are dispensaries in town that do give kickback to the Uber drivers. Yeah.

I not that I do that stuff. I'm just saying I passed by a couple of times. Yeah. I think strip clubs like Well, you had to take a taxi, right? " Because they'd only take them to the ones that would give them like 20, 40 bucks ahead. I know Diversity used to do it. And I think that started with the stripper industry, right? Yes.

Yeah. So, they 20 bucks. I think they do like 80 bucks ahead these days or something like that. I mean, that's a pretty good You take five guys to a strip club, that's like your night, dude. 80 bucks ahead, dude. Jeez. All you did was give somebody a ride. All right.

All right. There's lots of scams in Vegas back then, though, right? Hustles. Like, yeah, it's definitely like a I remember my mom telling me like, "If you can grow up here, we moved here when I was in fourth grade. She's like, you could grow up anywhere. " And meanwhile, we're like, you know, then like a couple years later, we're like in a high school kids [ __ ] private party and there's like three stories and a nund kids in there and like live sex shows and you're like, "What is like I was like, "Oh, Las Vegas is or and you're the area in the middle of a desert with a bunch of wild looking dudes with mohawks and like just kegs of beer and you're just partying in the middle of the desert and you're like 15. " You know, put your whale out in the desert.

Who's going to come? But now you were born in California. I was born in Southern California, but we came here uh I mean I think I was seven when we came here. So I was like 87 or Oh, I thought you were a little bit older than that. I didn't realize you were that young. And so I'm thankful for like Yeah, definitely. U I'm I'm thankful for my upbringing here cuz I just feel like it was so wild and and different. I mean, I was riding my BMX up and down Las Vegas Boulevard when I was 15 years old.

I mean weird. Yeah. Finding the halfopen beers, man, that were left around everywhere. It be like cool in the desert and [ __ ] Oh, dude. Yeah. I mean, all the things you find in the desert here was crazy, man. There's so many things. But just knowing like when I go down the strip these days, it's like I know every road here.

I know every back road here. I know how to get in and out. And um I was thankful. I had a lot of fun riding my BMX around uh the strip when you're 15, you know, and now when you see things like all the sporting events and everything, you're just like, man, this is so crazy how different it was, you know, back then. Dude, I mean, as far as tattooing, too. I mean, what do we have like a a tattoo shop in almost every casino? That's a crazy thing. Our our ecosystem, our environment for tattooing is very different from every other city.

Yeah. Yo, hell yeah. Very different. Hell yeah. Well, I remember before I came to work for you guys, I had called the board of health. I wanted to know exactly what was going on. And there were 47 tattoo shops in Las Vegas before I moved out there that 2008. Just before we closed Old Vegas, talking to the board of health, she told me 729 legal shops, not the private studios.

That's a lot. That's a huge increase in 12 years. I mean, right on my block, dude. You remember Studio 21 was like right around we were right on Decar and or I mean Jones and Flamingo, but I think at a peak there was pro I think close to like nine shops like within like in the vicinity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like like within like you know two blocks each direction.

two opened up in my vicinity within the five years, you know? Oh, really? Yeah. [ __ ] Yeah. Like I opened mine and then the one dude that used to work at downtown opened up on Charleston and and Rainbow. Oh, okay. I was like, "All right, man. Cool.

Right on. " Yeah. It's just That's how it is, though. You can't You can't control that. You got to just figure out how to stand up, stand out, be nice to people, do a good job, and people will come back. They'll be loyal to your shop and your tattoos, you know? Show up. Show up, man.

Just be there. Show it with a smile. Be there. Be sober. You know, like don't I don't know, man. Every shop you walk into, it's like like a lot of things are the same on the wall or nothing on the walls. That drives me that mindboggling to me, bro. Mindboggling to me.

There's just no I mean I know you're like much into character and and and the the theme of places and things and it's like it's so weird when it like looks like the Apple store. Like what am I doing here? Like am I getting a tattoo or? Yeah. Like I get it. Like I as far as the I don't know the aesthetics of like I don't know retail or something like that. There's different I get it. I just I definitely like I always like when we built out our sec second shop I I remember being like I just want everyone to walk in here and be so overwhelmed with [ __ ] you know, to look at and stories to talk about and things to see that I I don't know.

That was just like kind of my motivation. I wanted them to be able to leave and have so much more to talk about. Yeah. like you went and taught cool stuff and a lot of people did like I felt like when people came in and brought their friends they'd be like oh look at all this they told me this about this and you still have the map up there and stuff like that that's awesome man I've been there I'll be there I'll come to the record show well nowadays there's so many shops it's like dude oh you don't even know who's on your block well I want yeah and I miss like I want more I went six months not even knowing that there was another tattoo shop in my parking lot it took six months for me to find out that there was another tattoo shop in my park it was a private studio of course but But I kicked myself and how you know like for that to not be on my radar was like I felt stupid you know private studio thing is so strange to me like I would want a tattoo anywhere where like I wasn't around other tattoo artists or like we're people people though we're people people that's right there are some people that are not people is the most important thing like how big is your clientele that you can survive on just that clientele I think we'll see right now I mean we're seeing a lot of like it's this in this interesting cleansing period My one of my guys in my shop is telling me there's a new Tik Tok trend right now where it's like they're telling coming out as they're quitting tattooing and then like a lot of people are like applauding them and like I was like what are you even talking about?

I saw two today. I saw two today on Instagram. Really? There'll be all these comments. He told me there's like all these comments that are like oh good for you like I couldn't do it either. I quit you know and I was like that's really interesting man cuz that was like never an option for me. Well at least they're being kind about it and not just [ __ ] in the comments. I guess so.

Yeah. Yeah, like that. When I started tattooing, I don't feel like that was ever an option. I don't like I still don't. No, it's I mean I got nothing else, dude. Maybe one of my kids will do something awesome, you know? I don't know. They got no interest in tattooing.

" Like, and it's just like that old meme you see, the Slayer meme, you know? It's like, you know, uh you're not even cool to a teenage girl if you're the lead singer of Slayer, you You know, it's like the guy the guy from Slayer is like doing this and his teenage daughter is just like rolling her eyes. It's like you're not even cool if your dad's a tattoo artist or owns a tattoo shop. He's still not cool. You know, teenage kids, man. You got it incoming, dude. It's coming for you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You're going to trip. It gets real weird. It gets really strange. Like, it's so weird that I have these little humans that I made and they're just like, they like rag me, dude. They like they like rag me out, dude. That's kind of They clown on me.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, like I wouldn't want I wouldn't want them not to talk [ __ ] and have fun. Watching us right here. " You know, like, "Wow, really? " But damn, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I Dude, I I don't know. I'm like I love that our energy though, like I feel overall though that even though we've been in it for a minute, like we we still we just like have good things to say about it. Like even though we might not agree with like some of the younger kind of things, but like I'm still fascinated by it like every day and I want to figure out how to apply like newer ideas and energy that people are, you know, bringing to the table. Yeah. Nothing's worse than talking to somebody that's like super hard-headed about it has to be this way, it has to be this way. And it's like, dude, just let it do what it's going to do, man.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, [ __ ] we're sitting here doing these things. Like, this isn't something that I wouldn't done back in the day, you know? But now it's like, "Oh, okay. " That's what everybody tells me, you know? " I'm like, "Yeah, I don't [ __ ] want to, man.

I don't want to either. " It's like, can Why don't you do You're so good, though. You're personal. I know, man. I really should. I'll tell you the mics to get and whatever. It's just it's just what you I feel like me and Nick should do it just for fun. Bones has been good at He's been throwing himself out there.

Mr. Bones. Yes, he is. Yes, he is. Nobody I'll fight somebody over that, man. He's the best dude. Like, he's a sweetheart. He's good dude.

I'm I'm excited for him and his journey now. And he, you know, he's going to get in that van and do his thing. Was he hitting the road again? They're going to be They're going to hit it like move out of their apartment like permanently. Really? He's going to come back to the hive like once a month or you know once every five weeks. Do the whole country everywhere. Anywhere and everywhere.

I meant to Yeah, I need to hit him up because I I had an idea that I thought that he could help like um like al also like subsidize some income and like sell Maverick on the road at like trade shows or something, you know? So that way we and I could ship stuff to him, you know. He's like some he's the person that I would trust, you know, and like he's so sweet. He's a great communicator. He helps me with anything I ask him to do. Anything I ask him, I want to do something dumb. You want to dig a pool, Nick? He's in.

Yeah. You know, do you you want me to I want to frame this whole thing out. He's in. Like, doesn't complain. We just get it done, you know? We've done work on his van. He's so different from all of us, too, you know? And that's what I We're completely different guys.

Me and Nick Bones are completely different guys, but somehow we have the greatest friendship. Like, it's it it trips me out still. He's completely opposite for me. Like, but he's so fun and he's cool to talk to and he's always pumped, you know? He was excited to do things and it's cool, man. And all the gym that we did, let nothing get him down. No, man. It's cuz, you know, it was rough for him when he was young.

So, when things are rough when you're younger, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you talk about being broke again. We'll both say it. Been broke before. I mean, you know, it's the worst that can happen. You know, it's like, dude, when I first started tattooing, I was I was scared, dude.

I, you know, I quit my I I had a full-time job and I was doing my apprentichip and then I quit t uh I was working at a um I was a server at a a golf course, right? You know, and then I Yeah. And then uh but I remember quitting and and going like, "All right, dude. I'm going to do this like full-time. My rent was $400 a month. My truck was paid for. I paid $3,000 for it. And I remember going to work and making like 500 bucks.

And I went home and I I I remember my sister's boyfriend at the time. He got a safe. He worked for a safe company. " Like anything on top of this is icing on the cake. Like I could live like this for the rest of my [ __ ] life. I'm getting to go to work. I'm getting to draw. I'm getting to meet characters.

And then I get two [ __ ] beers and I smoke a little weed on the tailgate of my badass apartment that has a garage is 400 bucks a month. Like I was like I and I still to this day always remember that like I don't give a [ __ ] about anything that I acquire. Like I care and I'm great. I'm very grateful for it. But like if I go back to two Heineken 22s at the end of the night on a tailgate with the desert [ __ ] night, you know, it's like this is a good life, dude. You know, it's great. It's great. I I remember when I had my first like real money day.

Like I don't know. I worked in a sketchy like 250 bucks or something I made or something. I was like, "Wow, dude. " I can't I mean before that I was pulling [ __ ] human [ __ ] out of a toilet for $30 in tips. I was just telling him on the way over here I was like I [ __ ] worked at a bar and it was a bus boy and made 30 bucks and tips a night and and they had Joerger specials and these construction workers would come in and drink like a hundred [ __ ] shots of Joers for three bucks a piece or whatever. Dude [ __ ] his pants and who had to go in there and [ __ ] pull it out with a mop stick and put it in there. So going to work and tattooing and dealing with some weird ass people was [ __ ] golden, dude. You know, I just cleaned the [ __ ] bathroom in the shop the other day.

It happens, though. Sometimes it's a wreck, dude. You got to do it. It's your place, man. You want You want it to be nice. That's why I tell everybody to the shop. I was like, I just want this place to be nice, man. I want the bathrooms to be clean.

I want people to be comfortable. That's it. Yeah. Comfortable, clean, nice tattoo, good experience. That's it. Especially when you got ladies in the shop. I'm like come in here and I remember [ __ ] fat tattooers with hairy butts like sitting on my [ __ ] And I remember having to like [ __ ] clean that and be like wreaking like [ __ ] co cigarettes out all night. Dude, those guys there are some rough rough dudes, man.

I wish I could just remember all of them to tell you the truth. But but now when you got into it here, both of you when you guys got into it in Vegas, it was a very biker. It was like the tail end of the bikers. Okay. It was like bongs and bikers. Bongs and bikers. So there was bong shops that did tattooing and then yeah, it was the tail end. There was there was some like um you know bike culture group shops, you know, and I worked at one of them.

And then um but there were still biker tattooers that you know rode rode Harley's and look like what they were supposed to look like. Man, I think they're And were they affiliated or Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I was very open. I had them standing over me with their jackets on and everything telling me what to do.

And I was like, uh, I was used to being around him because my dad owned Harley's and we did a lot of like bike stuff like growing up. So, I knew he's just there's simple rules like shut the [ __ ] up. Don't be disrespectful, you know? It's like and nobody's going to really bother you and stick up for yourself or just dip. Just get the [ __ ] out. Irish goodbye every time. Dude, I got to go. I'm going to the bathroom.

Yeah. But yeah, there was there was opposing clubs had shots. I think it was like the tail end of like Yeah. things were changing. A lot of younger guys were coming in that were artists and but there were still like some sketchy biker dudes around town for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I worked at Fremont.

That that was a whole period I kind of even forgot to talk about was when I got off my piercing apprenticeship, they stuck me down on Fremont before they redid all that Fremont. And that was like one of the sketchiest places in town. And this was this was one of Sheila's shops as well. Yes, it was the uncle shop. Uncle I do remember that. And it was a big metal hanger. It looked like a airplane hanger with metal walls. Metal walls and metal ceilings all like a Quanza hut.

Like those dome type things. But two I think it's where um why do I not remember that? Where uh the Griffin is now. I'm I'm almost positive. So that's like before any of that got redid. It was like still real old shitty Fremont. It was like weird watch repair place across the street and like just hookers and drug dealers all in that whole section. You know, the one shop or the the joint was down there, the graffiti shop.

Graffiti shop was up the road a little bit. Um and then we were actually on Fremont and then there was like a pizza place there and a hot dog place. Weird sketchy hot dog place. And the sheriff card building that is now Triple Beast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We used to have to go get our um Where did you see more crazy [ __ ] on the strip or on Fremont. I saw I saw more on the strip. I think I mean all the time there would be wild things happening. I mean Latin City was right behind there. There was a day there was a night where a dude walked up to the [ __ ] uh gasoline pump. I saw the video of this ran his ATM car and just started drinking gasoline and like pouring it all over himself and he lit himself up right there right next to the shop and just like woo like a mushroom cloud. The dude's just like on fire. " Yeah.

" I was like, "I don't know, man. " You know? Yeah. " And I didn't know. I didn't even know what I was walking into. And I remember watching that video and just that [ __ ] me up for a couple of weeks, that video. Yeah, it was it was a real deal. It was a real deal.

Uh car accidents like crazy down there. I mean I think the I think the guy we talked about earlier, Ninja kicked a dude into traffic uh one time. Kicked him out of the door. The dude almost got hit by a bus. There's like a tall piercer that got hit by the mirror of the bus one time. It's right in his head. There's massive car accidents all the time. People just getting in crazy fights out there.

Definitely a couple gunfights here and there. Well, back to Bum Fights. That was the corner that they smashed all the windows out on, right? Yeah. And it wasn't the tattoo shop. It was the like the Bonanza gift shop or whatever it was. Yeah. They smashed all those windows out.

But that that's that corner. Yeah. I remember sitting in traffic and this dude with a bat just [ __ ] started taking out all the windows of the car in front of me. Right in front of that shop. And I was like, and you can't you're bumper to bumper. You can't go anywhere. And you're just like, "Please don't come back here. Don't let me be next.

" Knock on people's windows all the way down. They stay coming in the shop. Guys that just smell like everything under the sun. I mean, they've been sleeping out in this desert heat and they'd walk into the tattoo shop and like these counter kids would sometimes like let them use the bathroom. So, they'd be in there for like 2 hours. They come out and just destroy those bathrooms. It would smell like whatever they were smoking in there. Cuz they had like a tray of crack pipes that they would sell there with numbers on it.

Oh yeah. Yeah. " You know, they sell number four crack pipes all day. Oh, that was wild. That was They literally had crack pipes for sale in their store. So, it brought in obviously not the most elegant. I think they had them like on a tray and they put the tray away, right? You know, it's like it was all paraphernia and then these trays and then like what what's they sell in all the bong shops back then is like incense bongs like those those things you drink to make you not pass drug test which don't [ __ ] work.

I tried I couldn't get that job at Albert. Turned out it worked out for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All for smoking weed. And I had to fail it right in front of my dad who was probably [ __ ] high when I was there.

And then he was giving me [ __ ] Thousand% dude. Huh. Thousand%. Yeah. This is dude. Yeah. Las Vegas tattoos. I mean I all I'm sure obviously all over.

But um it that's what we got to experience and it was it was a good time. I did like it though when I was younger. I thought it was [ __ ] awesome. Now I'm like get the [ __ ] away from my shop. Like get on. Yeah, we have like a bad fentanyl and [ __ ] heroin problem in your parking lot now. Yeah, always. Oh, get out.

Really? Yeah, it's bad. Like Well, yeah. Yeah, but I you know, it's like a fancier place for the fentanyl [ __ ] heads. I don't even know what you call them. Like they're just like they're wild, bro. Like just this week this is their lady with a boot on. She's in a walker and she's just like shut up in the middle of the road and I'm always like, "Hey, excuse me.

Do you mind leaving? " And I try to like kill him with kindness. the other day, schizophrenic dude just straight built a whole entire like house in front of my shop. Yeah. And I was like I was like, "Hey man, uh good job on the on the property here. " He took that bottle of water and threw it and jumped up and started screaming at me. " Like that was another thing we used to have to deal with. Like everybody would have to try to get those guys off the sidewalk in the morning.

Yeah. Like if I had the morning shift, there was two shifts, right? 10 to 4. Sleep in the doorway. Yeah. 10 to 5 or 9 to5, like 9 to 4 and then like 4 to 2 in the morning or something like that. I I can't really remember to tell you the truth, but if you're the morning guy, you had to clear them out. So if there was a guy sleeping against the door, if there was a guy sleeping up, you like wake them up.

And every time they'd either get up and move or they'd get up and try to fight you or they'd get up and try to tackle you. And you don't want these guys touching you. Oh, dude. Yeah. It's the worst way to start your day at work. You're like, "Fuck, man. I just want to work, dude. " And I'm like, "Not a super germaphobe, but I definitely don't want that dirty griiness.

I don't want any of that on me now, bro. I can't even breathe. " Like, that's why I try to like help them, but then they, you know, they don't want to have anything to do with you. Yeah. I mean, back then it turned into like I think we got a hose finally and then we got like a bucket finally and it was just like dude I rolled up one day and there was six lawn chairs in a circle in this and they were all nodding off and they all had the needles in their arms and they were like, you know, I I'm thinking of a story of that shop on the strip. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have a When you guys were on the strip, did you work with Opie at all? I did work with Opie. Were you there when he got beat up by the homeless guy? I was there. And actually, I think he had given me a hard time the day before or something. So, I just let I just I just let it happen.

Guy gave me a hard time, man. I was like, "Fuck that, man. " But he was talking, if I recall right, he was like talking a lot of [ __ ] to him. And I was like, "Bro, these people have nothing, too. They got nothing to lose, right? They got nothing to lose. We got things to lose. " So, you know, you got to respect them at that point.

But, but we [ __ ] with them constantly, dude. I mean, we glue quarters to the ground, you know, like do that dollar bills, you know, you glue them to the ground. You just sit there and watch them try to get it up all day. And the one guy got smart, he'd come by with the the screwdriver and the hammer and he get them all. There's always someone who gets in in Yeah. Always. Some of them are pretty. Yeah.

Yeah. And we'd be sitting there and it would happen. We'd go, "All right, man. You deserve it. He did it. He did it. You got it up. " just stay messing with them all the time, especially in the mornings cuz they've been awake for five, six, seven days, whatever, dude.

You know, like I don't know. No joke. But you're right. I'm older now. I wonder how I deal with that. I'm I'm lucky wherever we put Hive because I don't get that a lot. I get like once in a while the one that goes behind the Yeah, you're in a good spot. We're still Dude, we're still close to the strip.

So, we just get all of that energy right off the strip as I had to ask a dude to leave the other day. He just rolled in a wheelchair. He definitely could walk and everything. He just decided, I just want to live in this wheelchair and I never want to bathe and I never want to get out of it to use the restroom and he just rolled right into the shop. " You know, and he just had the longest story. " And he I just like, "Oh, that's cool, man. " I don't know why I just always offer bottle water like hey you know and I'm like start opening the door I was like a it's just so nice out here like maybe come on out here yeah get some fresh air bro yeah we got that's crazy you're dealing with it like that yeah we have a female dwarf that rides a child's bike and does fentanyl all day long while and she nods off on the Oh she's good for you're like oh Phil Phil knows her knows her Phil's a nuts Bill was pretty good at talking to all the homeless people.

The homeless loved me. Yeah, they love you. Like know their name. I was their mayor. Yeah. Phil's out there with Jeff or whatever, you know? Like they all knew you for some reason. The generates love me.

Talking on the I think that comes from you coming from New York, though. Yeah. Oh, totally. They can smell it on you away. They're like, "This guy, this guy, he knows idiots. This guy clearly knows idiots. Or at least tell me a story. Yeah, I gave out a lot of cigarettes in that parking lot.

No doubt. I gave out a lot of cigarettes in that parking. I remember it being like decent though. I mean, we we had a few. Dude, remember that time the girls with the taxi, you had to lock them out. The crazy the crazy girls. The zombie girls. Was I there or was that just you and Courtney that were there?

I I feel like we were all there like No, I was there. I was there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, now you got to tell the story. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So, there was a there was a real popular restaurant like right in our spot and then right in front of our shop is an Arby's. And there was this big black SUV in the drive-thru at Arby's. And apparently, I'm assuming they were persuasive men that had young ladies that had some sort of business arrangement with them or something. Yeah. Uh all of a sudden, the the doors open. There's screaming going on and we and we're just kind of like out front. I think the door was open because it was a beautiful I remember it being like a beautiful night. I don't know why, but yeah.

Yeah, the door open. That's right. Yeah, because I remember all of a sudden hearing all this commotion screaming out front. " And all those people were in front of the restaurant and they were all panicking and we were all kind of in and out of front and then I realized like oh like I I feel like I started to go over there and say something and then I realized it was like a definitely not a good situation and the girls were like overdosing on something. Yeah. But they were like faces were like all red blonde girls and stuff too. Yeah. And I remember like foam like foam or like snot or something, you know?

It was It reminded me of some Pulp Fiction [ __ ] But then the dudes just jumped in the truck and then jumped the curb and bounced. And then these girls were just screaming and bloody murder. But it wasn't like they were like no one was hurting them. They were just freaking out. It was really weird. Yeah. And then you just pulled the door closed. I just had to pull the door closed cuz they were trying to get in the shop and it was like a real [ __ ] up situation and all these people I don't know.

We didn't I I think we just stay in the shop. " Yeah. So I tell him at the Especially we got girls up front and stuff. I'm like just close the door and like be safe, dude. Like Courtney came over and like shut the curtains. Like we're just like nah let them deal with that. It was one one of the more emotional I mean we called the police and like we're getting an ambulance came in like 15 minutes or some [ __ ] I remember that. But I and they were like helping him out but they weren't like in they didn't want help but they were just I don't know what they were out of their minds.

Whatever was going on. I never seen like a human act like that before. was definitely like on some really crazy drug [ __ ] But like I remember that night for some reason. I don't know. I think it was just us three there or something. Okay. Well, I changed my mind. Maybe the parking lot was just as wild.

There was one point when they found a dead body in in a car in front of the Chinese place. Remember that? I don't remember that. But we had a shootout in the parking lot and the dude died right in and behind like right in front of a shop. That's right. And then there was like was it dude chas the other dude with a screwdriver or something? Remember that guy? That crazy guy.

It was you coming up Flamingo. He was drugged out of his mind. He was on pills and he [ __ ] just straight up tried to turn into our parking lot with two flat tires. Yes. And then once the wheels hit the curb, they popped his car up and he ran up into the landscaping and hit the palm tree. And we were having some problems with some kids or somebody was like [ __ ] with our windows. So I heard all this noise. So I just like pulled off my gloves, ran outside.

Dude was like nodding off and then like you know he was just [ __ ] up. So he backs back out into the road and then drive like I'm like right up by his window and then he just starts trying to back up and then go and he pulls up into the parking lot and it has four flats at this point in time. " Like, you know what? What is happening? You need to chill out. Like and he he just was like yelling at me and screaming and and then he just walks right past me like I didn't even exist. That's right. And then he went into the bar and I don't know what happened.

Like his car was like doors were open and running when he went into the shop. Oh. " And I was like, I followed him in there and I don't know why I just kind of lost my cool. I mean, I guess because of all this, I lost my cool. I just ran up on him and I just pushed him super hard and I grabbed his keys and I [ __ ] just turned around and he like fell and then the bartender's freaking out like I was like a crazy person. His mom was a [ __ ] bartender. Yeah. So, she's tripping on me because I just rolled in and [ __ ] pushed him down.

And then I So, I come back out of the um of the bar and I'm walking back and I just hear someone screaming and kind of like running behind me. " Like, but he wasn't like running good. He was [ __ ] up. So, I just took the keys and I just threw him like in all of my like lack of sports glory thought that I was going to be able to nail him in the face with the keys and they just went like seven feet over there and and I was all damn it, dude. I was that was my time to shine. I was going to put this dude down and now he's got a knife and I'm like I'm like I don't [ __ ] know knife fighting yet, you know? So I just turned around and I was like just walked kept walking away from him. He was like that [ __ ] up.

He was like stumbling and [ __ ] and then just walked in the shop and locked the door, dude. And the cops the cops [ __ ] rolled up and like I was like dude has a knife. He's [ __ ] crazy tripping and they're pulling all these crazy amounts of drugs out of his car, dude. Yeah. And then the knife the guy pulls out the knife and it's like a 4 inch blade or something. " The cop. " Like what the [ __ ] It's a [ __ ] knife. Like, how far is my [ __ ] liver from my skin?

I don't know. I'm pretty sure it's less than 4 in. " And I just walked back in the shop. But it was a total mixed bag in that parking lot cuz it wasn't uncommon to see a McLaren pulling up for the restaurant, you know? Then there was the the bowling place for a while. Yeah. We had the links two pimps in a [ __ ] Maserati. What was that dude's name?

You remember that dude's name? Yeah. He used to come in. We used to He wanted us to draw money bags and he would make them into big ass gold chains. Yeah. I can't remember his name. I can't remember his name either. He was cool.

Pink diamonds. Pink diamonds. And he always had like a Maserati or Lamborghini. He straight had a [ __ ] Minkx in it or some sort of like rare tiger. Like it was like a large ass cat. Like only in Vegas. That [ __ ] only happens in Vegas. He was like eight foot tall black dude, man.

Like with these pink diamonds. Nicest dude ever. But I was like, bro, he was definitely somebody where you're like, I don't know what is is going to pop off right now, you know? I remember how he was tied in with another dude I knew and that they had like a lion in their house at one point. Like a like a lion cub. Like they were into like trading like uh you know, savage cats and earlucking cat was like this big, dude. I'm like it's not a a bobcat or something crazy. Yeah.

I just remember looking in the car. " I do remember that. We had a car coming up the [ __ ] street one day just start flipping, dude. Flipping and flipping. I remember that. In front of the shop and then poor girl lost her hand. Remember that? Fingers or whatever.

Jumped out of the car, had half a hand, and the three dudes that were in the car bounced, just ran on her ass, dude. Left her in there. The car caught on [ __ ] fire, dude. My brother-in-law pulled her out like right in front. He put He put the fire out, too. Yeah. Yeah. Rest of us standing there like, I don't know what to do, man.

This is crazy. Yeah. I pulled I pulled a lady out of a [ __ ] Ford Ranger that wrecked into the shop like landscaping and she straight had a cocktail in her hand and was screaming at the other guy because she was up in the hard right lane [ __ ] doing like 60 past everybody in the parking and and then the dude just pulls over. She hits him, bounces into the shop. She gets out with her cocktail. [ __ ] you. Like I was like I couldn't get the door open. The [ __ ] truck was on fire and her cab was filling with smoke.

So, I had to run around and open up the other door and then she's all bleeding from the uh [ __ ] airbag and everything and I pull her out. There's the other dude that couldn't speak any English. Yeah. There's the other dude that couldn't speak English that like ran into the other car and he's sitting there saying, "I'm not drunk. " But he can't even stand up. He's like falling off the curb and we're all like, "I don't know, man. " I remember I just I I remember having to almost fight one of my clients because he he was an attorney. Got off work, came in, I was working on his full back piece.

He was kept going to the bathroom and I was like, "Okay, man. " And then it was like all of a sudden he was shitous, like hammered. He had a bottle of vodka he had stuffed behind the toilet in the bathroom and was taking pills. And he he was so [ __ ] drunk I couldn't even keep him on the table. He was like started to flop off. I was like, "Bud, we got to like call it a night. " He just started getting all and he he's my boy like but he was not in it like at this point in time. So whatever.

So he ends up like going out to the lobby. The lobby's full of tattoo like all of our other customers. He goes face down on the [ __ ] couch and farts so loud, dude. So [ __ ] loud. and all the other clients get up and like move over to the other side of the lobby and then me and my dad are trying to get him up and like and then all of a sudden he just [ __ ] darts like to his truck and he gets in his truck and he can't [ __ ] he's got he's got it started but he can't get his foot like onto the gas pedal and everything. We ended up having to take the keys out through him call his wife [ __ ] he got to come pick him up so much crazy Uber is like the greatest thing that's ever happened in this city. Yeah, man. Yeah, I stay I stay taking Ubers if I if I drink anymore, man.

Just got too much. Like we talked about earlier, some of these people got nothing to lose, man. But I not me, man. I love taking an Uber. Yeah, most of the time. Most of Oh, [ __ ] And we we went off on some tangents tonight. I got a question. What was your first setup?

What were your first machines? My first machines were national machines. Nationals? What? Which nationals machines? I think they were the swing gates. Like the They were just chrome. Yeah.

Yeah. The Yeah, that's one I ground the crows off. I tried to make Yeah. Yeah. I tried to make it look vintage later on. Get it off. But Oh, yeah. Shitty little Yeah, that's it, dude.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Had like the blue coils, the old school like reflective, right? Yeah. With that little circle. And what was your power unit? Was your power unit?

The big big black brick. Oh, wow. With the two the two displays. The two displays on it. Yeah. I bought it from some other kid that was trying to learn how to tattoo and he gave up. And so I bought it off of him from one of the other guys, one of the other guys apprentice and he sold me everything I think cheap. I wish I had that stuff still.

There's a lot of things I got rid of that I wish I would have had that. Really? Yeah. So I had the two nationals for a long time and then my first real set I bought with my own money were were Danny Fowler time machines. Oh god. Yeah. I got those cuz they had sets, right? So I bought the invader set and then I used those forever and then it was just about buying random machines that people came through with whatever.

Just tried it. I just all I always just tried everything cuz I felt like everybody had learned how to tattoo knew a lot but they didn't know a lot down that alley. Not a lot of people knew a lot about machines, right? Right. There were very few um bespoke uh uh builders out there at that. These days they're a dime a dozen. These days it's a dime a dozen. But yeah, you definitely relied on on the bigger suppliers.

Big Joe's, Nationals, Bald Inc. Cam got huge. Big when I was really young. Cam's back. Oh, really? Are they? Wow. It's crazy.

Fatty lives in Hemet, right? So, it's always trip I always tripped out that like all those boxes would come from Hemet all the time, you know. Oh, I didn't I never even knew that's where where they were. I I always thought Cam was Northern California. It was Hemet California in the desert. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I used to use those really terrible um disposable uh tubes like where like everything would get so hot that the Yeah. Yeah. Like the like your your your grip would just go, but I was so like I didn't want to scrub tubes anymore. I'd scrub tubes for too long and I was like totally against it. And then I, you know, I use those forever. And then I use the Neotats for a long time. And then I just use Pen Machine now. Yeah.

Yeah. I just use this guy's cartridges, too. Since you got to go all the way to China and see them. Yeah. [ __ ] a, dude. I just got back. Yeah. It's wild, dude.

It was really I got to see our product get made from start to Oh, really? No [ __ ] Everybody that has their hands on it. I got to like your first time. Yeah, that was my first time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna try to go. you the only supplier that he's supplying with tattoo stuff or what?

Uh no, he's he has international clients, you know, like all over the world, but like now we're build we've we're building like all of our own specific stuff. It's It's pretty cool. That is cool. I get I get like so hyped for everybody that does cool [ __ ] all the time. " Like, dude, it's I'm still kind of in shock. I'm like, "Dang, this is like a It was so wild to like all the time and energy that we put into this company and then to be able to go right to where it [ __ ] starts and like and he's making everything in-house. He's doing the whole everything. It's pretty wild, dude.

Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's like really cool. I got to like literally like as soon as the cartridge shell pops out of the the the you know the molds like and then you go over and then we put the needles in and line up the membrane and then uh attach it to the piston you know and then snap them together and then put them in the little blister packs and then put our paper on them and then compress them. I've always wondered what the sterilization process is on that stuff. It's all eel gas sterilized. So, it's a giant [ __ ] bin. You you they roll everything in there and it's compressed gas. How big of a of a Is it a room or is it an actual Pretty Yeah, it's pretty [ __ ] big.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like a I've always wondered how they do that sterilization on that stuff. Yeah. Hopefully you got some pictures you could show me sometime. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I got like I was worried I wasn't, you know, allowed to take pictures in a manufacturing facility. I don't I don't know. I didn't really know, but it was cool. Totally. " But I was still shy. I'm like [ __ ] I don't know. I like it was cool. Oh, this is kind of fun, too.

So, yeah. So, we're like working on all of our product and uh he was like showing me the the samples that we had put together and stuff and um so he he's I was like I'm sorry I didn't bring any pen like a machine or anything and he he just pulls out this random like [ __ ] machine that he has and then and some fake skin and then we just start plugging in the cartridges and I was like just heads up like I I'm at a [ __ ] ball like a boardroom table like in front of people and you know and uh put out the ink and everything. I was like, I never tattooed like fake skin before, you know. And then I go to I was I felt weird not having gloves on and [ __ ] you know, and I go to dip in and I start run my first line and I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] Yeah, these these feel good.

" And then I go back to dip again and I hit the edge of the cup and [ __ ] blast black ink all over the place. Of course. And I was all ah, you're like, "Pro move. " Man, it was funny. I felt like I was like I was just laughing at myself like I'm so [ __ ] goofy, dude. Like his dad Yeah, his dad and then his um his dad and his buddy bought these two big parcels like a like a good um I I want to say like probably in the ' 90s. I didn't really get like exact dates because the I was just kind of judging by the way the buildings looked and uh the way they were built and then they split and then they built these big um warehouses, big longass warehouses. So then our factory is on one side and then the uncle's factory, he called them uncle um uh is on the other and they they didn't do anything to do with tattooing there, but we we build all of our cartridges and everything there and then the mold shops right behind there.

So, like as soon as we design something, we can go to the mold shop, get the molds built, and then just pull them right there. So, I got to tour that and everything. And like, yeah, it's pretty cool, dude. Uh, dude, the Yeah. Everything that we like here, and I'm like, it's not like that over there. It's [ __ ] awesome. It's very clean, incredibly safe. Uh, like especially in our factory, like it's [ __ ] legit.

" You know, I was honestly like as an American guy, like what we've told about factories, like I was like worried. Right. Right. So organized. Yes. I was like scared, dude. You know, I'm not going to lie. I was like, ah, if I'm going to see something that I don't [ __ ] like and then I'm going to be like, what the [ __ ] am I going to do now?

You know, and um so it was great. He just does tattoo stuff or does he do other stuff as well? Just only our cartridges. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I got to see like all these new machines that we invested in and uh that are all specifically because of like our volume and everything.

We've been able to like level up and like it's pretty dope, dude. So, now we're like we're just working on every little detail of of like all of the I I nerd out on that [ __ ] you know? So like not not only on the cartridges or whatever, but I want like the packaging to be like this and I want it to be like this and I want it to feel like this and I want it to the experience to be something for, you know, a tattooer to open and feel like proud and and fulfilled by, you know. So talking about, man, it's cool. Be cool. Be proud of it, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Make cool [ __ ] you know, and people will gravitate towards it for sure. I think so. It's like, you know, and and when We were just talking about the donut thing before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still have that doughnut shop in my backyard, by the way.

Yeah. It It's going to pop off. I'm going to put my kids to work on that [ __ ] I want them to like learn. [ __ ] yeah, dude. I just want to teach them how to make cash and how to talk to people and how to build like a brand and an experience for people and uh get them to the point to where they can, you know, make some extra cash and then get them to save up and invest in their own [ __ ] you know? So I said oldest one likes she likes money, man. She's trying to work now. She's she's such a G.

She'd be like paying her younger sister to make her a sandwich or make her, you know what I mean? It just happened yesterday. Like she got paid to make a bagel. The other one's like the other one's like she's a dumb. Mine are battling at the counter and breakfast right now too over that. Like oh well I'll pay you to do this and I will do this you know and you're like okay girl you're four and you're out here trying I'll pay you $100 Grayson. " You know, first of all, you don't got a 100 bucks, but your brother does. I seen him stacking, dude.

He's like over there stacking, dude. He [ __ ] puts it puts it away. You and Courtney's personalities were so different. Yeah. Yeah. My sister's real different than me. Your kids? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm my son and my wife is my daughter. Yeah. It's crazy. And she even looks like one looks Filipino and one looks white. Dude, we need a whole other two hours to talk about Courtney, I think. No joke.

That's a great interview, bro. She has to come in. If you get us all here, she has to be there. Oh my god. The laughs that would be had at that would just be absolutely insane, man. It was a lot of good times back then, man. So many. So many we can't even remember.

We just brought up a few. I mean, there's probably hundreds of them. Every day there was crazy [ __ ] going on. Every day. We went out a lot. Yeah. And my family, like my, you know, I partnered up with my mom and my dad in 2003 and then my sister came on board like 2006 or seven and then she Yeah. 08.

Summer of 08. And then she had some kids like a year later, but she was there for like five or six years or something. It's weird. It's like a blur like you know like almost in February we'll be open for 23 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where we lie like in in like as far as shops being older or not in Las Vegas.

Like I got to look that up sometime. 23 years old. I don't think there's many that are especially consistent with same owner, you know. Same owner, same name, you know. Yeah. There's only a handful of shops I got more time than that. Yeah. which doesn't work.

That just means they're closing as soon as their lease is up, unfortunately. You know, if somebody says they're selling their shop, they're gonna get a little bit of money from somebody else that doesn't know what they're doing. And then Yeah. And nobody has that money right now. Yeah. No tattooers have that money right now. So, and if they do, they want to do their own thing, you know? We've been through this before hundred times with tattooing though.

I mean, if you've been doing it long enough, you've been I kind of like uh I don't know if you like I kind of like compare it to when I was young like and watching documentaries about skateboarding, you know, like watching skateboarding go through its peaks and its valleys. Like I think we're definitely going through an interesting valley. This is definitely the longest recession we've ever seen in tattooing. This is definitely the longest one. I think it's I don't know if it's just the I mean there's so many things against us right now. I mean, when you take it into consideration, like it's not just the recession that we're dealing with. We're dealing with more tattooers than we've ever dealt with in in the history of tattooing. We're dealing with a smaller minimum than we've ever dealt with in the history of tattooing.

Whereas 10 years ago, the average size tattoo was a palm size with color. These days, it's an outline that's big. It's minimum priced. And and now starting to see so many tattooers dropping their minimums, and it's like, how do you keep up with that? Yeah. Experience. experience. You got to give them experience.

You got to give them like something to talk about when they leave that's different from what other shops are doing. You know, we're looking I was looking at like our profit loss steam today and our costs are up higher than ever, you know, especially I mean even compared to last year, they're up higher, but the volume and the amount of people that are coming in through the door is is substantially less, you know. Yeah. Tattoos that they're getting are so much smaller. Yeah. And I I talked to like a lot of other tattooers that have been in the industry for a long time and they're and they're going through the exact same thing. Like people that you you see and you may still see as legends, not not discrediting them, they're they're just struggling too.

Like, you know, like that's the other thing with this recession is I feel in the past we went through geographic recessions where we'd be hurting here in the United States, but I talked to tattooers in in Europe and they're like, "Oh, no, we haven't felt," you know, and now this is the first time where no matter where you are in the tattoo industry, you're definitely feeling a bite. I think this is the first um worldwide tattoo recession that we've gone through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. the old doc's uh wife's from Poland.

They're doing great. Okay. That's really ironic because I met these tattooers in New York when I did u uh on um John's podcast on tattooer out there and uh that I've been in contact with them and they're now like starting tattoo supply companies. " Okay, that's interesting. Tattooers that have been tattooing over 20 years are fine. Kind of. I don't know. It depends on their their mentality because you got to remember like you take into consideration the fact that every year has been a downgrade for me coming from the '9s.

I mean there was times where on an average day I do no less than a dozen tattoos. Coming to the 2000s now you're talking about three or four maybe five tattoos a day. Now at this stage in the game where it's like if you're lucky you're doing two tattoos. I feel like it's hurt the older generations more. the generations that were padded by all of this. Now, again, back to the, you know, the the the volume of tattooers. That's another another thing. When I came up, there were 24 tattooers in New York City.

You know, now there's 24 tattooers on every block in New York City. So, I feel like the older generation of tattooers are definitely getting hurt more than than the the generations after them. Yeah. Well, I feel like I mean I stay pretty consistent because I have a group of people that I tattoo like on a rotating basis, right? And it's a I don't know how many of them are off the top of my head, but I see the same people. It's like pretty rare that I tattoo somebody I don't know. And you kind of focus on smaller tattoos, too. Like you're you're not Yeah.

You're not trying to [ __ ] with like back pieces and full piece. So, you're still kind of like at an affordable, approachable kind of like I have actually I have a new back piece and I have a new sleeve, which is different for me, too. But I I like I try to keep my tattoos like CD size or smaller, you know? I like to have that visit and that interaction and have a good one, man. I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to hurt you for hours out. I don't want to run out of [ __ ] to talk about. Yeah.

You got three hours and then it's like, all right, I'm out. Age thing, you know, like leaning over somebody, your back hurts, dude. Or like I had a lot of problems with my feet ever since I ran those marathons, man. I got a lot of Are you not running any longer? I can't, man. I literally can't walk farther than like a couple miles right now. Really? Yeah.

I got this numbness in my legs. It might be a spine thing. Older weird weird things are happening. Get back into that yoga. I would love to go to yoga, man. Yeah. Got it, dude. It's like the only thing that I can think that that's helped me.

You're still going weekly? Yeah, I'm like doing like three to I try to do four days a week, but I usually get two to four. I'm like your neighbor. I should just go wherever you're at, dude. I don't live far from you at all. It was [ __ ] packed today. I did I did a hot yoga class this morning and it was like there was toe to toe, dude. Like I I go 9:30 in the morning.

9:30 is a great time. Drop the kids off, go straight there. That's a great time to go. I'm going to link up with you, man. I really I I really need to get But it helps my feet. It helps my neck, my back, like all those, you know, not not even just tattooing. Like my whole entire life I've been hunched over a drawing table. So it's like there was like a lot of years before that.

Yeah. That teenager just hunched over a drawing table. Yeah. Hella lonely. Like never had a girlfriend. Like I just drew in my room alone on a Friday night. But now there was like a solid decade where you were doing all the marathons and everything, right? I did it for 2017 to just a couple years ago, right?

2017. Yeah. To just a few years ago. I did 10 full marathons. Not hardly anybody. And you did all the major marathons, too. Three New York cities in a row. Three years in a row.

I did New York City. I did Chicago. I did Phoenix. I did Honolulu. I did two in Vegas. I have to ask Nick the other ones, but I did eight with Nick, I think. I think I did eight or nine with Nick. So, me and Nick got to run New York City together, and it was probably like the best time we ever had.

Yeah. So, my fastest one took me just under four hours. It was like 3 hours, 45 minutes for full 26 miles. That's fast. And my slowest one was 7 miles. So, that was the second one I did. So New York City was 3:55, Honolulu was 3 hours 45 minutes. I was clocking like a 6 minute 630 mile or something.

Wow. I was hauling and I had never I was never athlete my whole life. Ever. Ever. That was the first time I did anything athletic in my life. And And you were good at it? I was good at it. And but I'm paying for it now.

I I definitely think Is Nick still running? He runs. He goes to the gym. Nick's a great at going to the gym. He's there like five days, six days a week. Nick's interview is great, dude. talking about the ultramarathons and all the weird [ __ ] you know, running into the bushes and [ __ ] and then wip finishing a marathon with one sock on. I was like, he had some jokes.

" Me and Nick have been a few marathons. When he's got to go, he's got to go, you know? So, like, dude, you better go then, man. I'll wait for you right here, you know? Yeah. We had some great I mean, me and Nick have been out there, you know. You're talking, you're hanging out talking for like five hours, you know, while you're running a couple times. raining on us for like an hour straight.

You know, you hang out a lot and then you get to like mile 18, you're like, "Damn, dude. " Ran from the cops once and the worst block. Yeah. Yeah. I was hiding under a bridge for a minute. I got caught red-handed spray painting on these walls and I just [ __ ] dipped and I ended up on the other side of the city like I was [ __ ] hiding. Yeah. We We all got a few of those stories.

I mean, yeah. Yeah. coming home smelling like spray paint and all that. That was the only time I've ever done any Well, that's another thing. You You were big into graffiti before you got into tattoo. Loved graffiti. I love graffiti. Your whole style was full on new school.

It was full new school graffiti style when I first started. It's all I was interested in. I had all like graffiti magazines and I I was into it, man. I I I like I still like it. I still see I see it out there, you know, on the streets and I always go, "Good job, guys. " You know, you know, I didn't do it or anything, but I still love seeing it. I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you have a tag before Swarm? I don't think so. I think I Oh, yeah. I think it was like I wanted to do evil or evil or something like that, but there was another dude in the city that had the same name. Yeah. Where did the swarm thing come from, man? The whole obsession with bees and the hive tattoo shop and everything, you know.

That's a fun story. The swarm thing actually came from the graffiti thing. So I was doing the swarm thing, everybody started calling me swarm, and then my dad actually started calling me swarm. Oh, really? Just from everybody calling me swarm. It's the best, dude. I got hit I got hit with a good one, dude. Yeah.

So he started calling me swarm and I was like I don't know 19 or 20 and then it just stuck and then and I was just like well if my dad can call me swarm and you you can call me swarm, you know. Just everybody calls me swarm. I don't even think I have an obsession with bees or anything. It just No, you just the honeycomb started going with it and yeah, it was like when I was about to open the shop, Jen's like, you know, you have to call it hive. There's just there's no other thing you can call it. It like swarms hive tattoo. I was like, yeah, you're right. I have to do that.

So, and then people started like giving me all this honeycomb and hive stuff. Like I have all this stuff hive now that's got all this Yeah, your whole throat's hived. I was literally too like ago I was like yeah 19 years old when I got that put on me I think. Yeah. And but way back bad apple you were there too, right? during that time I was. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's kind of it all it all stemmed from graffiti cuz I always liked to draw when I was a kid. Yeah. I just loved drawing and then it was like now you got this book that's black book and you just could fill it up with all these colored markers and even when I was just doing piercing like when we talked about I was down on Fremont I was always doing tags in this book. Always. Always. Yeah. Then I found spray paint to be like way too expensive dude. So yeah steal it and I was like I can't be doing this.

I didn't want to get in trouble, dude. Like I saw a few people get in trouble and they had to go back and pay all that money and I was like, I don't think Oh, yeah. Oscar Goodman was hardcore. He did not like it. I forget. Good chance on here, too. And he was telling a story about his house getting [ __ ] raided. Yeah.

And pulled out for graffiti stuff for spray paint. Really? They pulled his ass out of bed [ __ ] like boom, just in the middle of the night. Yeah. My first house had graffiti all along all the walls in the backyard. I bought my first house when I was like 22 or something like that. " I'd be like, "I don't know. " You know, yes, I did.

Yeah, I used to have some good parties, dude. Yeah. I wish I could remember all those. I wish I had pictures from all those, you know. Thousand good times, man. Thousand good times. Uh yeah, those parties were great, dude. Yeah, I think you came to one, I think.

Maybe. I don't know. You had some good parties, dude. You had great parties. I mean, we partied. We definitely partied. Yeah. I flipped a Corolla over in my backyard and it lit on fire.

And I wasn't driving. Oh man. Yeah, we had some good ones. It is what it is. I see I see Shawn once in a while. Yeah. He tells me about some of that. Actually saw the Frost Brothers pretty recently.

Used to do it. You know who's been coming around getting tattooed is uh Weston. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. He's been coming around getting a few tattoos here and there. Oh, good. He's always got some cool not too long ago in Oh, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. I like all those people, too. All All good people, man. A lot of old schoolers. Yeah. Now, have have your kids picked up art? Are your kids artistically savvy?

Oh, we should ask her over there. She's sitting over there. She's She's She's actually recently picked up the guitar. Really? Yeah, she Yeah. But, uh, Mimi is quite the artist. She's like in ceramics and she made me a ticky mug for my birthday. super cool.

So, not so much. She likes to draw. I've taught her how to use the iPad, but they're definitely crafty, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They'll find their creative outlet. Yeah.

Yeah. So far, those two are so far. So, I don't know what the little one's going to do yet besides raise hell, dude. She's an absolute animal, dude. She's absolutely crazy. My my tiny one, dude. She's like a pure she's a two. She's like a pure anarchist, man.

Like, she's just absolutely nuts, dude. No, not not a fear in the world, dude. Yeah, not a fear in the world. Doesn't want to learn how to talk. Just wants to throw [ __ ] at you. Like, I really got what I deserve finally. I think, you know, I really did. Three girls.

Three girls. Three. And then Jen has a girl. So, it's four. Four girls. All girls. Yeah. Yeah.

Like I said, all they do is clown on me now. You know, like it's like a whole clown on dad thing when you're in the in the kitchen or the living room. Did you get them at the shop ever? Like help? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mimi's gotten really into piercings, so she's getting her ears all pierced up. She's got her belly pierced. She's wants She's got her nose pierced. This one's starting to get curious. " So, it's kind of cool cuz I was into it when I was young. Me and and uh their uncle were really into piercings when we were young. Always into piercing for some reason. Yeah.

I never was. Yeah. I got my ear pierced in fourth grade and then I got a big gas kloid that grew out the back of my ear and was super embarrassed. had to get that thing sawed off and then I just never went back to piercing. Yeah, that makes sense. It wasn't for everybody. I think I got my tongue pierced when I was like 17 or 16. And I remember my dad coming home and like having his eyebrow pierced or some [ __ ] I can't imagine your dad with an eyebrow piercing.

Oh my god. " Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. That's wild, man. Yeah, it was. I don't know. How are your parents?

Well, how's your mom? Yeah, good. We just, you know, just great. They're, you know, just doing doing it, doing it. Yeah. No. Yeah. We keep them, we keep them keep the kids busy, too, you know.

So, they're like always with us or they'll be over here like on a Saturday like writing cards to people and like, you know, I get them to draw dinosaurs on the cards and we put them in every order and stuff, you know. Yeah. We keep them busy. It's good. So, [ __ ] I don't know, man. I think we should We covered some bases, man. So, yeah, we we went off on There's always the reunion episode. There's always the reunion episode.

The dick, man. But it's just like it's crude. Crude. I find myself crude as I get older just cuz like I never really It was wild. My whole upbringing was so wild, man. It's just like there's no You can't really cut it down. You can't You can't baby it, you know? It's good times, wild times.

And I I think tattooing my outlook on tattooing right now is really different from a lot of people I talk to, man. I It's still good. I It's still great. I know it's slow for a lot of people, but for me, it's pretty good. And some of the people that work for me, it's great for them. They do different styles and have their own group of people that they tattoo. And then I think once you make that tribe of people, I mean, they just stay getting tattooed from you. Their family members get tattooed from you.

And I think I think that's important for young tattooers to learn is to Are you seeing are you tattooing their kids? Are you Is it a generational Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm starting to tattoo their kids. I think I'm not far away from tattooing their kids' kids. I'm only like seven or eight years or something like that. Yeah, I'm almost there.

It's like I know there's one of my clients it's like getting close where it's like scary. I am getting the Yeah. the random like, "Oh, come on. I know you're not tattooing a whole lot lately, but like, you know, my so and so wants this, you know, and I was like, you got to do it, man. I know. You got to do it. It's a It's like a what? I haven't It's like a legacy thing for for a lot of people, especially if you've known them for a long time, you know?

Yeah, it is. It's not about you, you know? It's about them and their stories and the and the and how grateful are you to have these people that want to be there? Yeah. every single person that sits down, man, I'm grateful that you took the time out of your day and you sat with me and we did a tattoo and we had fun, you know, and that's as far as a tattoo goes for me. It's it's a lot of fun. Yeah. You know, it's it's fun.

We're not saving people's lives, but you know, still making people look kind of Yeah, actually. Sometimes, you know, depend. And there are those people whose lives we have saved, you know. Yeah. We we all remember those first tattoos. You couldn't you couldn't walk past the mirror. All of a sudden, you've just felt like an amazing human being. It has that that's the magic of this tattoo [ __ ] is it can bring you from down here to all the way up here and a 15minute tattoo.

You still see it, man. " Yeah. I know. It helped us out, you know. Oh, yeah. And and I feel like we we get just as much out of that when you see that customer smiling in the mirror thrilled. It does something for you. It gives you that that that that uh what's the word I'm looking for?

Just confidence and and and stoked, you know? You're just like pumped on it, dude. " I did NYX back. I did NYX back. You can't see it. You can't see. Just do the shoulders. What?

What? You can see that's put a quarter of the top of a rose. Right. Looks funny in that yoga mirror. Huh? Yeah. I just keep my shirt on. I got a few more I need to get, I'm sure.

And then like she was saying earlier, the kids want to do like little tattoos on me. So, I'm going to do that at some point, you know? Yeah. My wife tattooed me the other day like right on my [ __ ] hand, which trip out. I see hand tattoos on this guy. No, I know cuz dude, all my whole career I didn't do nothing above the collar or below the wrist. Yeah. " You know?

When your dad was so mad at me when I got my head tattooed, dude. Yeah. He did not like that. I remember that. Thought I scared away the first customer and he came and I was just like, I don't know. Austin said it was fine, man. I don't know. I had to talk him out of getting [ __ ] bacon and eggs tattooed on his head.

Brilliant. Can you imagine if it like there's so many times I had to talk him out of doing something? No. But it's wild how far that has gone cuz like at the nationals conventions in the '9s, they wouldn't let you in if you had facial tattoos. And these days, it's like what what tattooer doesn't have facial tattoos? It's so rare to run into a young tattooer that doesn't have [ __ ] all over their face. I mean, my barista has more facial tattoos than most tattooers I know, you know? It's like, whoa.

I don't even notice it anymore. Like unless you have like a full-fledged like dagger down your nose, I don't even I don't even notice it. I don't think for the longest time that I've seen tattoos on tattooed people. I know that sounds weird, but it's like I get to know people and I don't even see your tattoos. Like I I know you have them. Has to be pretty out. Can you tell me what Can you tell me what so and so has on their arm? So now I've always wondered that about our kids.

Do our kids just not see tattoos because they're so used to seeing tattoos? My family, they don't know. My wife too, she'll say, she'll like, "I don't know what tattoos you have. " She can ask me like every tattoo I have, I can tell you who did it. I can tell you who did the conversations you had during it, how much you paid for it. You can tell everything. Everything. every I remember where I was living at that time or who was with me or who was sitting with me.

Now, back to that's what weirds me out when I say to somebody who did your tattoo and they're like some guy. " Yeah. Like that's the you're missing all the fun, right? Or even us remembering our clients. Like there's a lot of times where I don't remember a name or maybe sometimes don't a face cuz I see the tattoo. You see the tattoo and then you're instantly like you're a barber, you [ __ ] Yeah. Your mom did this. I [ __ ] remember it all cuz it it is cuz I spent that time% I I I have I have a bad habit of not looking people in their face to begin with.

But when I'm like this the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. They just listen. They know everything about me. They know where every weird hair is on my face cuz they're staring right at me. But I'm just looking at the tattoo for 3 hours. " You know, you you just remember that one little thing.

You told me that like how are your 10 kids or you ever had anybody tell you about how they got tattooed by this guy named Swarm somewhere? Uh I've had that happen to me multiple times at a bar or whatever. So I I've had people do that for the shop so far. " I'm like, "Oh, really? " Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

" I'm like, "Yeah, I kind of own it. " But that's awesome you get tattooed there. Yeah. It's funny because I generally don't even bring it up. " Yeah, that's a good place, dude. Like, yeah. I don't know. I don't really leave the house without a piece of article of clothing promoting whatever I'm doing now.

But I know I should have wore some today. I feel very Yeah. Hive naked today, man. So, [ __ ] that's where we find you. Give us I'll be there. Yeah. Hive tatto. We got eight tattooers there.

My body piercer I was talking about earlier. which is phenomenal. You want to get your We have eight tattooers now. Good lord. We have eight actually people there from like 12:00 to 7:00 now. Every day it's actually on schedules. People are there which is totally opposite of how it was started and what I wanted to do. But like we were talking about earlier, things evolve and you have to do things to to keep it going, you know.

Yeah. But but you recently expanded too. I expanded. It's been two years now that I expanded because I wanted to have body piercing because so many people called me and that was a skill I possessed that I could teach somebody to do. So I said I can do this. I can. So yeah, I had to go through the city and cut holes in the walls and pull permits. I did the whole nine, which is a huge pain if you ever have to do that.

You probably know a little bit about that. But um I just wanted to have body piercing. So I had room to do body piercing over there and then have two more tattooers. And now it's turned into just one tattooer. And I think eventually it might just turn into just body piercing on that side. Like if you come into the shop, there's a comfortable place to sit and wait to get body pierced to like product on display and just like have respect towards that. And like those clients are there for a totally different situation. They don't need to be sitting in the middle of the tattoo shop, you know?

So I got like seven on one side and one on the other. There usually like two or three people there at a time. But I I'm really proud of the group of people that I've put together so far. Well, you're a good dude. You surround good yourself by you've always surrounded yourself by great people, you know. Yeah, I got a pretty big group still. Still see all those guys weekly. Always admiring that.

Yeah. Yeah. I have a huge group, you know. Um I'm going to do the anniversary party again this year on the first Saturday of May. That's the 5year anniversary party. And I think I'm going to not have a party for a while. I think I'm going to wait till like year eight and then maybe like year 10 or something because it's quite the It takes a lot out of me to throw those to this guy does three a week. We're doing them like once a month right now.

It's so crazy. Once a month, man. Are you nuts, bro? Like I like I I can appreciate it. We have a good team right now, though. Like everybody's like [ __ ] working their asses off all the time. Like that's that's what you need. Yeah.

Because for every like person you had there that was kind of sucked or was a jerk or whatever, there's somebody else that wants to come in and make it great. Dude, I just got a just just got a new great person this week. She starts on Friday. Just find the right people that like love your place and love what you do and the way you run it and and things will they they work out, you know. But like I said, I think I'm going to do this party the five year, take a little break cuz since Nick's hitting the road, I met Nick helps me with most of that stuff. We put that wall up every We put we put like a semi-permanent wall up for art every year. We have a huge art show. I think I sent out like 30 art invitations to be part of the show last year and I got like four pieces of art or something like that.

So hard. I literally have to like call people every week and be like, "Hey man, you said you were going to do this art show. " You got to guilt the [ __ ] out of them. Artists need to be guilted and whipped. Yeah. Like speaking of guilt guilt trip, I heard Mike didn't do the record. He did not. And it it was I you know, I'll give him a pass this year because I didn't reach out to him personally.

But uh yeah, it just I'll guilt him next year. This was great. It was great catching up. Thanks. Thanks for coming, dude. Thanks for having me on, man. I love you with all of my heart, dude. Love you, Phil.

Love you, homie. Ran into this guy, man. This guy's the best. Oh. Oh, we didn't even talk about I ran into you at the baseball game and we're sitting right [ __ ] next to each other. What are the odds? I know. That's right next to each other.

like same row and I was like this is awesome and then like I it was right after my wife left and I just drank that night bro like probably when I say goodbye to you I I don't really remember dude so it was a good game we lost but it was a good game great I love sporting events dude I always have I still I think I go to like 18 nights games a year and a sportsman I never knew a damn thing about sports bro you have to see my living room now I got We got to have you guys buy, dude. It's pretty impressive, dude. I got 275 in mounted. I got 55 mounted on the fireplace. I got the YouTube TV hit c hooked up package. You've always been a very Vegas sports team guy. Are you going to be an A's guy? I have a hard time with the A's cuz the A's are in the same division as the Angels.

Like my mortal enemy for years. I went to an Angels game with you. We had a good time. Yeah, we had a great time. Yeah. Yeah. We left in an ambulance. Not you, but me and uh their mom, the girl's mom.

I don't I remember that. Yeah, remember? Had to leave in an ambulance. I left Angel St in an ambulance that night. Who was I with? Oh, it was with Andy or something. Oh, okay. Okay.

I was with the girl's mom and uh we went to that when we had that beach house and then we ended up leaving an ambulance that night and we went to the hospital, right? And then we came back to the beach house and they didn't know what was wrong with her and we turned out we came back home and she was pregnant with Michaela. Michaela. Oh man. Yeah. See, I found out my wife and I she was pregnant in uh Newport Beach, too. That's the same. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I was eating that [ __ ] $8 mega piece of pizza by myself, super drunk in the middle of the [ __ ] pizza place, and she comes in crying with this stick. And I was like, "What is that? What is that? " So, why are you crying? I'm just mowing this pizza hammered in the middle of the day. Yeah.

The girl's mom had gotten so sick at that Angels game and they didn't know. She was like, "I don't know. " And then they like, they put me in an Angel Stadium cage. Like all the players were walking by and I was like, "This is so weird. " I think you guys just took off and next thing you know, I'm riding the ambulance and we're like sitting in. We were all staying in the same house, right? Okay. Yeah.

" Like like we got to go, you know? And we left. I think I Ubered. I mean, that was 16 years ago now. Like time flies. So, at least you get to see the A's here in Vegas because they're in the same division. They'll play a couple of times a year. Correct.

Well, my retirement plan always. I love this. Always. Are you going to do all of them? I was going to be a a baseball usher. Oh, brilliant. My whole retirement plan ever was I just wanted to be an old ass man. I was forced to go to the baseball stadium, you know, 40 something time or 80 something times.

I would tell my whole family like, "Oh, no. I can't go to that birthday party. I have to I have to work tonight, you know, and I want to go and I want to show people to their seats and I want to stand there and watch the baseball game. " So, my dreams may come true cuz there's there's one here. I'm excited to see this new stadium. From the what I'm seeing, it looks phenomenal, guys. It's beautiful, dude. It's beautiful.

Like I said, man, I got the YouTube TV. I watch all nine morning NFL games at one time. Oh my god. Yeah, bro. And then some days I'll have like hockey, baseball, you know, whatever whatever's going on, you know. I got them all on, dude. I'm just sitting there. I might have to bring Gray over because he wants to learn all the sports and I don't know a thing at all.

We got to get him and Luca together because that's all Luca does all day long. He's in the backyard playing basketball, playing soccer all day long. Yeah, he's in basketball and soccer now at school. So, it's fun. Phil, where do we find you at? Thanks for hanging with us. I'm on Instagram. I'm on Instagram.

Phil Luck tattoo for some strange [ __ ] reason. That's it. That's the only place to find Unless you're on my block and you walk past my garage. Oh, man. Phil still in the garage. Don't leave the garage. That's good. He's a garage master, man.

That's it. Well, thank you guys so much for hanging out tonight. Thanks for listening. Always fun. and the reunion. We got to start putting together this reunion. Okay. That's man, if you can get like all of us there, man, I think that would be a lot of fun to talk about.

Coming on next. Oh, good. Good. Yeah, he's doing great. Oh, right on. Very cool. Very cool. I haven't I don't have a date yet, so he's doing great, man.

He's doing the sober thing and he's doing the comedy thing. We went to one of his shows. We had a great time. Did you? Yeah, we need to go. I I was just uh on the way over here in November 16th. He's doing one, but I think I'm I think that's a night of I think we have a party or something. Everything that comes out of his [ __ ] mouth is funny.

Everything that comes out of Yeah. He's found a little niche, dude. And I I think he's going to be do well at it, man. So, I'm proud of him, too. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. You got to get everybody got to get everybody over here.

Yep. Yeah. I'm down, dudes. But, uh, [ __ ] it. Let's wrap it up. We got to go pick up kids and do stuff. Right on. Yeah, we'll leave work tomorrow again and I'm gonna go see the insane clown posy tomorrow night.

Oh my goodness. I'm not in Vegas. They're playing. Yeah. I'm not a fan, but I just I just want to do something weird. I just like want to show up and I know the guy who runs Brooklyn Bowl. So, we're going to be like me and Will are going to go. We're going to be like on a lane and drink some beers and awesome laugh.

Drink some fo. I hope so. I hope so. The Aquabats play Friday night. I'm trying to Oh, that's your That's your man. I know, dude. I love concerts, man. Love it.

I love punk rock bowling. I love concerts. I had breakfast next to Fat Mike the other day. Did you really? Does he live in town? It was just him and I and he was talking to some girl and I was like I was just stare. He sat down at the table that was like right in front of me and I was like I look so famili I'm like oh I mean I kind of knew who it was right off the bat but then after I listened to him talk I was like oh okay I was just by myself eating breakfast just awkwardly like out there with him. the coolest week weekend not too long ago like Pennywise and Sublime played with the singer Sun.

Yeah. And I bought tickets to both nights. They played double nights at um Park MGM. So I went to the first night and I happened to be walking by on the record. You've been inside of there. On the record. I feel like you like the inside of there. And he was doing a popup acoustic show, The Sun, like Bradley No's son, Jacob.

And it was awesome. And it got me really excited to see the show at night. He sounds just like his dad. He killed it. It was an acoustic set. He killed it. I took a picture with him. He was so nice.

So that night I got to see that show with Penny Wise. Lead singer from Penny Wise was doing private tour punk rock museum the next day. I went to that. It was only about like 30 of us and he told us all these great stories and then I went and saw that show that night and it was just awesome. Like the best two days ever, man. It was so much fun, dude. So much fun. Right down Swarm's alley, dude.

Right down. Right down, dude. Yeah, I always be that old dude in the back, dude. " Well, damn, guys. Let's uh shut her down. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. Um yeah, keep uh keep uh keep uh keep keep coming back. I don't know.

What are you supposed to say? Subscribe and comment below or something like that. I don't I haven't done any of those things. Yeah. What are we supposed to say? Subscribe and comment below. I don't know. Hit the thumb.

Yeah, I never really done any of that [ __ ] So anyway, thanks everybody. Peace. Brought to you by Maverick Supply Co. Boy.