Maverick ZINE — Tattoo Culture, Art & Artist Stories

People go like, "Hey man, just do anything you want. " He does 1-hour sessions. He'll do like six, seven people a day, but each one only gets 1 hour because the more you do, the worse it heals. Okay? The worse it heals, the more cleanup you have later. " For the most part, tattooing's fine. But once every 3 to 7 months, [ __ ] happens in a tattoo [Music] [Music] shop. What's happening everybody?

This is Austin Spencer with Support Your Local Tattoer. I am real real pumped today to sit down with a man that I've been tattooing in the same city as this man for me personally about 20 years um if not a little more. He has some great apprenticeship stories, some really fascinating just your your body of work as far as a tattooer is in hodge podge inc. It's dude incredible slow motion hodgepodge. But anyway, this is Clark North, man. And uh thank you guys for tuning in. So, chilling. How's How's your day going?

It's going good. It's It's I like the cold weather the best. I like when I can actually layer a little bit instead of just wearing a t-shirt. Yeah. Sweating, man. You start to get you get to express yourself through your style. Yeah. Yeah.

I know. It's like sweating sucks. So, let's see. You've been tattooing. I know you've you've been tattooing in Vegas now for I've been I've been here since 04 04 03. Uh came out just to see if I really wanted to for a minute and then 04 made the move. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And you kind of been like pretty lowkey. I feel like you hide out. Yeah. Yeah. It it it was awkward. Uh I don't know. Standing out too much.

Just I don't know. That's not me. Yeah. We did that TV show that was 200 well 2004 but it didn't air till five 2005 to seven. So was that what brought you out here? Yes. Yeah. So yeah they they um they had asked me for like three four weeks if I was in magazines before all that and Thomas Pendleton is somebody that that I helped uh him with his uh career a lot okay back in the 90s.

Yeah. " What the [ __ ] is this? It's like um I don't know. There were weird things at that time. There wasn't reality shows. I didn't know what it was. No, I know. That's why I was going to ask you, too.

I in my mind, I pictured it as like a documentary. Oh, I didn't know what they didn't say reality show even. They weren't saying, you know, they just a TV show about a tattooer's life and different tattooers. And so this is the shop. And it was like just a bad day. I'm from LA, Orange County area. It was just a bad day out there when I finally said yes. Really?

It was just one of those moments where Yeah. Somebody was like mad at me for for uh chipping the workstation and leaving cabinets open and bending a hinge, which I did none of. But the night shift, it was just one of those where I was I don't know. I I ain't saying that it was like wrong. Uh they were attacking me and so I got the [ __ ] out of there. But I was I was just like, you know what? When a door opens, why not look inside? So, and then they said, okay, you got to be here in 3 days then.

Oh [ __ ] Yeah. So, I had gone out I had come come out Las Vegas. I had come out in 03, checked it out. Thomas had, you know, invited me and then um they were filming like I I guess they were filming the pilot at that time. Yeah. Okay. And um I was just like that's not for me, man. This is awkward and weird and and and and I have no to be honest, no peers.

Yeah. Everybody was at least 10 to 15 years younger than me and it just felt not right. But then my wife, well to be honest, um, my friends Mark Mahoney, Rick Walters, yeah, they are the ones that said, "If you don't [ __ ] go out there and do do this, we got to have somebody from our peer group involved somehow. " You know what I mean? Yeah, they were saying at least have somebody from from the old days in in there and they're not asking us, so you go. That was really That's cool. " It's like I like their forward thinking, though, and I'm positive outlook on it. And you know, I was worried that you were going to be getting a lot of [ __ ] from your peers or, you know, I did get [ __ ] from I would imagine like all of us any, you know, artists are so cringey when it comes to new things.

It was the late '9s was when a whole bunch of people started tattooing and we felt it, you know, we you you go from well, my first professional shop that I worked in was Carrie Barbas. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I worked until I moved to Las Vegas. She had it was in Anaheim or Yeah, at that time there was one shop that was Anaheim. I went into that shop back in the day. Yeah. Yeah.

I worked there for a decade. Okay. So, I bought some Dennis McFale prints in there, I think. Uh is Oh, he's the artist. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

The 3D wall or Yeah. Uh he did like all the hot rod kind of like pin striping and illustrations. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now I know what you're talking about. That was that was before she did the 3D walls. But yeah, it was it was just them saying, "Do it.

" And I'm just like, "I don't know. I just Well, it's just weird. I don't want to be on TV. I'm not looking. That's not my life is tattooing. So, yeah. It just felt weird like, but I did it. And then, um, yeah, then, like you said, the peers got angry.

But yeah, that the late '9s, a whole bunch of people started tattooing and everybody felt it. It went from like 8,000 tattooers in the world for reals in the early '9s. No [ __ ] Damn. Yeah. People don't realize how um it was a small community. Yeah. There was like 8,000 tattooers in the [ __ ] world. Now that's like in a county, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. A US county. But yeah, it just um it did affect everybody's income at that time. Just all of a sudden um you couldn't buy annually raise the price and that started happening like Yeah. Like I remember we raised the price in 93 or 90 94 that's when I started carry shop was 94. We raised the price from $40 an hour to $60 an hour. That was normal.

You go from $40 an hour in 934 then to 60 and Okay. It was like uh you know the same as groceries going from $40 a bag to $60 a bag. Same thing. Yeah. And then a couple years later, we went up to $80 an hour. Then we went up to $100 an hour. And that was by like maybe 98. Then it's like 99 20000.

" And that wasn't really happening before. I mean, guys have always been around, but not hundreds of them, which is what happened in the '9s. So, everybody was taking a hit and tattooing was getting slow. It was It Everybody was feeling it. Oh, [ __ ] Yeah. So, so from like the year maybe 2001, 2002, 2003, we were feeling it. " No, you can't. It's like It's weird balance.

Then I was doing the TV show and then as soon as it started airing, even as soon as the whispering was going out that it's being filmed, oh, really? I started receiving physical [ __ ] hate mail. It was bizarre. " And the [ __ ] is all this [ __ ] Which is always like from people that really want to be doing what you're doing. It's a weird thing. And and I didn't hold grudges. I wasn't like, "Fuck them," or anything. I was just like, "I get it, man.

" Yeah, at that time I had um a 9year-old and a 10year-old and I'm like I I I am paying alimony child support. I need to figure out my future just how to grow within your So it it was bizarre when the show first came out there was a lot of anger um a lot. The only times I ever was like what the [ __ ] who the [ __ ] is this guy was when they threatened my [ __ ] family. Yeah. [ __ ] weird. and with a with a [ __ ] writing in there. What? Just weird [ __ ] Oh my god.

" Yeah. " Yeah. Because it started making the public not afraid to go into tattoo shops. For sure. One of the things I'm proud of is is is u it's a weird balance. You know, I wished it was still underground like it was. It was small and special. Yeah.

Now it's not as special. But so there's weird responsibilities, but so many tattooers started saying, "I'm [ __ ] sorry. " Dang. Type of thing. Okay. Yeah. So, it made tattooing, I think, more accessible to a lot of people that wanted tattoos. Yeah.

But just like tattoo shops were like, you don't know if you're going to a bike or den. You don't you didn't know, you know, people were afraid. What's it like inside a tattoo shop? We single-handedly felt it. I mean, our shop opened up. So, I don't know if we said it. This is for Hart Huntington was the show that you were on in Las Vegas, and that was uh the first Yeah. inked and that was the first or second.

Well, we were filming it. Yeah, we were filming it. Yeah, they filmed it for like 8 n months, but by our seventh month of filming um then we heard a production company or crew got together and are um putting out a TV show and they just started filming it after we'd been filming for seven months. Yeah. Yeah. And so they actually busted out their [ __ ] So it's a weird thing. It doesn't matter to me. No, no, no.

For sure. " But we didn't go on air until 9 days after their first episode. So, they filmed for 2 months and then had um I guess 3 four weeks worth of episodes. And we we were filming for like seven, eight months before the TV show ever came out. So, it was hard filming it, too, because nobody knew. What the [ __ ] Why is there a tattoo shop in this in this casino, which was a first, too. It was a big deal for Vegas. Yeah.

It's like, what the [ __ ] is that? Which they changed the zoning for and everything because we were all as tattoo shops and owners, we were all forced to be in like an industrial zoning. So, it was like strip clubs and Yeah. I had to get seven permits. Yeah. uh seven permits and something like $6,500 to get permitted for myself. Each one of the people in Hart and Huntington had [ __ ] It was crazy just the permits and all that stuff was changing things. Yeah.

Well, so kind of back to what we were talking about how explosive it kind of became right as those shows started taking off. Like our shop opened up in 2003, right literally down the street from the casino that uh Hart and Huntington was in. And you guys opened up like was it right before us or like 2003 or 2004 it opened? I can't remember. Um I know we opened like right around built in 03. Okay. Uh December was when I came out. 03 December is when I came out and they filmed that um pilot I guess is what it was.

But that was like a grand opening party. Yeah. cuz it opened up and then the it took a while for the TV show to kick off, right? A year or so. Like you Yeah, we were we were they were filming from 03 and you were already there trying to survive as a tattoo artist in this new environment. It was probably I was borrowing money from everybody for months and months and months. I was borrowing money, borrowing money. It was hard.

You were lucky if if you got to do something little twice on your shift. Yeah. But then after the TV show started airing and people started, you know, watching it, then the line was like there was literally I remember seeing the line go outside even. And then so then those people were getting uh frustrated cuz they couldn't get access to the tattoo shop. So then they were coming over to us. So like freakishly we opened up down the street at the same time and we were brand new. So it kind of helped us out. We would recommend Yeah, we would totally recommend you.

So I remember that. Yeah, everybody was nice in there. We got We got four. We got three. Wait, three. Three. I keep thinking four because of the um set the next shop, but three tattooers at a time. The shop is only like 40 40 ft deep.

Yeah. 15 ft wide, something like that. But yeah, uh we couldn't get to everybody. Every once in a while, there'd be some gnarly fights in the line. Like we would we would unlock the door at 11. What? I think it was and you know the girls would go like yeah the there's about 150 people out there and you're like you can't tattoo 150 people. So she would tell them like if if you're wanting t-shirts let's form a sec separate line and then that would weed it down to maybe like 80 people that wanted tattoos and then it would take first in line.

But then people get in fight to out in the lines outside. Security had to deal with that [ __ ] Then when we would open the door, they would come in and then they they'd talk to the uh the helpers and they would go, "Okay, well this sounds like it it should it should go to to Josh or this should go to they would split it up. Yeah. Yeah. And so then uh I'd be like, "Yeah, okay. I'll take that. " Okay. And so then they would come back, but then this Oh, [ __ ] The gnarliest was, you know, was funny is the producers, they they were like all in their 20s and 30s.

Yeah. " You go, "I work with cash. " And um I remember like as they were filming they started going, "Well, this is kind of boring. Maybe if we" And I like, "No, man. " Yeah. But um they didn't have spice or something. " And I'm like, "It just would get gnarly sometimes. " They're like, "What?

" And I'm like, but this one day because of the line, Yeah. say the fourth and fifth people, so three are getting tattooed, then the next two, one's told to come back at like 1:00, one's told to come back at 12:30. So the 12:30 guy comes back around 12:30, but the guy that was told that he heard told to come back around 1 was already in the shop. Oh [ __ ] So he's thinking that guy's taking cuts. And the girls, they get scared as soon as somebody gets a little agitated. And um so I was tattooing in the back and they were filming like each tattooer would have a producer sitting over the clipboard in case you say something cool. They're like jotting it down and what time and what to look for. And then there's um one or two camera people on you.

There's there's boom mic guy. So, you're sitting in a little 10 by10 spot with you, your client, and at least four. And um then that's also going on with other the other tattooers. It's not just one tattooers being filmed. " And the next thing I knew, I had this guy down. Yeah. The next thing I knew, I had his knife in my hand. Oh my god.

And u the [ __ ] security, she called the security. She called 911. " And it was bizarre. So yeah, this guy misunderstood that just because that guy came back a little earlier than him didn't mean he was going to get sacked earlier. Yeah. But the guy was also obviously drunk. Yeah. Being a [ __ ] drunk.

But uh but then I remember going, "Fuck, that's so cool that you guys go. " Cuz I was thinking, "That's cool. " Yeah. Nothing gone. And And I went and they were in the in the um in the clean room and they shut they panicked and hid. What? Instead of filming and they didn't follow. They did.

They just freaked out because it all happened. It was bizarre. I was like, "Oh, there you go. That's awesome. You guys got that for the No, you didn't. " These youngsters. Yeah. They were Yeah.

Damn. Instead of assisting you and making sure you're good. They they they were they were all like um they ran and hid. They were all scared to go into tattoo shops, you know. They were the kind of people that the show ended up teaching that not all tattoo shops are going to rob you or beat you up or throw you in the dumpster pillowcase and dump. Yeah. Yeah. I So, I did hear a little bit about the I don't even know where to start.

Let's go Well, before we get into that, let's kind of get back. I really always enjoy hearing how you you got into tattooing and but I see that you were you were doing hand poking before. Yeah. You got into Well, tattooing was never weird or foreign to me. It has never been. Um when we first moved to California, I was four years old. We moved to Maywood, Los Angeles in in that was in 667. That was the 60s, the early 70s.

the the I guess it's okay. My my parents are both gone. It's it's it was open marriage season. Okay. Okay. So, it was awkward for for uh me growing up a little bit. But my dad, he had girlfriends. Okay.

And my mom, she had boyfriends. Okay. I think my mom's boyfriends were in reaction to my mom, my dad's girlfriend. That could be. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, big.

But my my mom's boyfriend, he he was a [ __ ] hell's angel and he was fully [ __ ] tattooed. Um that was her boyfriend. And I I called him my daddy I mean my daytime daddy. My my day daddy. Okay. He he was there while my dad was gone. My dad he would work till like 3:00 or 4 in the afternoon and then he would go out until like 8 9 at night with with women. Okay.

And um my mom's reaction was [ __ ] that. I want some too. Yeah, that was the 60s, late60s, you know, the whole [ __ ] hippie free sex [ __ ] Yeah, that ruined the the [ __ ] I don't know. But anyways, so um I have very very vivid memories of them sitting at the table. We lived in a small apartment, just a little table, round table, but they'd be drinking coffee and giggling and talking. " And then I'd come back in and my mom's knees would have scabs on them. I was just not talking [ __ ] but you know, her husband was doing this [ __ ] to her. Yeah.

And her reaction and she found a guy that really made her giggle. Really, really was cool to her, but he was very tattooed. Yeah. Well, I liked his tattoos. " It was just like, yeah, I'd seen, you know, I don't remember tattoos being like, whoa, what is that? I never had that experience. I just remembered there's tattoos. I don't remember thinking, what are tattoos?

Nothing. It was just there was no question. Yeah. You know, it's just natural is there was never any like what are those? But I liked to draw. I've been drawing since I was four. Anyways, him being heavily tattooed and being a bit of a thug, he actually poked a tattoo in himself to show me what what a tattoo is. Oh, cool.

When you were a little guy. When I was four. For real. Okay. So, yeah, he used to have like outline of um a topless hoola dancer front or no topless hoola dancer back, hot topless hoola dancer front. Oh, that's fun. Um, and he would let me color in tattoos. Um, that's when I actually started drawing tattoos.

I didn't start drawing per se until I didn't have an interest. Yeah. Yeah. Until I was like, that anchor's neat, that butterfly is neat. I want to draw those. And so he would sit there with his arm on the table and my mom and him would be chitchatting. And we we didn't have regular paper back then either. the only thing to draw on at the time in a household would have been typing paper.

Are you familiar with typing paper? The texture on it. It's it's got it's got a film that when the ink touches it, it's kind of a sticky paper. It's got like I don't know what on it. I remember drawing on those and trying to um draw with pencil that didn't work. And so I started drawing with ballpoint pen. But yeah, that's when I started literally drawing tattoos. That's cool.

Your very first like exposure to art in general. And then um so I was four. By the time I was six, seven, eight, I started drawing tattoos on friends and birthday parties. They would they would have like a clown or something and and maybe whatever. They would have different things. Yeah. But I was like a novelty in our little quarter mile neighborhood and I would set up a little pretend tattoo station and draw tattoos, you know? to be like six, seven kids standing in line and then I would draw, what do you want?

They're like, I want a ship. I remember even trying to figure out like, okay, I'm going to let them either have a butterfly or an anchor because a ship takes too long. You're already I had seen tattoo shops because of the pike down in Long Beach and there was a bunch of tattoo shops in there and um we would go down to the pike, you know, starting when I was like 5 years old. So, I knew they had pictures of what they would do for you on the wall. I would draw little here's what you can get, you know, later life. Now, I know that's Flash and I I didn't know any of that. I didn't know. But I did at least seven or eight birthday parties as a little seven-year-old tattooer pretending to be That's cool.

I remember one time when there was like five, six kids, you know, waiting for their tattoo cuz they're all like 5 years old and I'm I'm the big old sevenyear-old and they would want the tattoo more than the cake. I remember the mothers going, "The cake's ready, kids. " Just so that the the moms would be being upset. They would give me like3 four dollars. I was going to say you started a little entrepreneur. You're starting to get paid real quick there. That's cool. But yeah, as far as like hand poke, you know, people people back then did not consider hand poke a tattoo or real, you know.

Now there's hand poke. I'm a professional handpoke tattoo. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. It's come back. Yeah. It's pretty wild.

That's awesome. But yeah, I I um I put a little tattoo in myself when I was four years old. I put a little tattoo in myself. Oh [ __ ] But you can still see to this day when I was nine even. Okay. It's just a little thing to see what it felt like. Yeah. But as far as really tattooing, putting a picture on somebody that started when I was 13.

Even a lot of my friends did not like tattoos. " It it was never a separate thing for me. It was just like drawing and tattoos go together. I liked drawing. I like they weren't separate from me. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I started started poking on myself pictures like actual pictures and then like friends and you just draw on and then just start poking on over the top of that. Then yeah, sometimes people have asked me like what's the first tattoo you ever did?

I have no idea. What's the first professional tattoo you did? I have no idea what's doing it. Do you remember if you were doing it with like sewing needle and then you would wrap the thread around there and then sew? Exactly. That's what my mom's boyfriend showed me. Okay, cool. Was Yeah, basically he would he would poke one needle out in the middle and he would wrap five around it.

Okay. And then um that's more advanced than I was learn taught. Yeah, it was like But he also showed me different things too. Like you you can you can put them on a um popsicle stick. Yep. and basically just showing me I don't know. He thought I was a cool little kid, you know. I still remember his name.

His name was Jean Tunk. I'm pretty sure that was Jean Tunk. It was um just a normal part of my life. Hand poking. " Yeah, that's basically it. Same as tabori needles, you know? Yeah. It's just anything that'll break the skin.

And then how do you just fasten it together so it doesn't fall apart while you're working? I was doing that until I met Mike Brown. Mike Brown, I think I met him in 79, probably 80. I don't know. Yeah, he was still at the Whittier Tattoo Land. Tattoo Land was in on Whittier Boulevard. Okay. Um before it moved to Anaheim.

That's when I met Mike Brown. And he had tattooed me. " I'm like, "Yeah, it's like he's like,"Well, what are you doing here? " You know, we didn't have the word tribal back then. Yeah. Okay. But, you know, black tattoos, but not no shading, no color. Just think of a shape.

You know, you can do a black diamond. Do do a floor in, you know, basically they started calling that all tribal in the '9s. But Mike is the one that showed me, you know, um, use a chopstick and shave it down like that. And then, um, you put the needles on like that. And, uh, he taught me how to sanitize better. He taught me how to, that was like a brief maybe 3 to five months hanging out with Mike and him showing me how to make needles and he told me how to stretch the skin. Ah, that's one thing I didn't know. Yeah.

Like with tabori needles, you don't just stretch and poke any direction. You want to stretch and and flick in the direction, you know. Okay. He's the one that taught me that. He taught me how to do a, you know, larger grouping like 11 needles and then double stack them so that when you're at an angle, both rows are hitting at the same time. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Years later, I figured out, oh, he taught me tabori.

That's cool, right? Yeah. Mike was uh very special to me. Yeah, that's awesome. So, okay, so he was uh this is all out of the Long Beach area or were we still in the Pike area? Pikes. Uh we moved from Maywood to I don't even remember Watts Downey. Yeah.

Um we moved different places. uh Pico Rivera. Then we ended up moving to Garden Grove and then we moved to Huntington Beach. I I I've counted I've moved 17 times by still together and like doing their thing. Yeah. That that Yeah, they were together about 20 years total. So you started when once you learned how to do that, were were you starting to [ __ ] around on your friends and stuff like your buddies at 13? Yes.

Yeah. Okay. So, yes. And some parents were like Yeah. My dad hated on your door. Yeah. My dad was in the Navy during World War II. Okay.

And during Korea. He was both in both of those wars. Oh, wow. And he was a pilot. Okay. During World War II. Then during Korea, he was a lieutenant commander aboard an aircraft carrier in charge of pilots, I guess, or experiment. He was in charge of weird experiments, too.

Anyways. Yeah. So my dad hated tattoos. He said those are for enlisted men. Those are or those are for the [ __ ] those are for the I don't know. He used to talk [ __ ] about tattoos. He hated tattoos. I remember he thought this.

Okay. I did that when I was 13. Damn. Okay, cool. That's a pretty bold move right. It wasn't though. To me it was to other people. They were freaking out telling me I'm go to going to go to hell.

Leviticus says you're going to go to hell. You're a sinner. Um all this stuff that just tripped me out. But no, to me it wasn't no big deal. And I even had friends that like, I don't know why you're doing that, man. You're never going to get you're never going to get a good job. You're never they're not even going to uh girls aren't even like all this stuff, you know? So, some friends talking about tattoos was just I learned, you know, don't talk about what tattoos with Doug.

Don't talk about tattoos, you know, with certain people. tattoos, but it was never these days at a young age, tattoos are cool. It doesn't seem like that was really what it was like back then, but maybe it was just my small world. It was they were normal. " Like, were we a part of the same team? Yeah. So, I tattooed I tattooed um I tattooed friends off and on from the 70s up until um my wife at the time got pregnant and when when we were going to have a a a child is when I started realizing I want a career um talked to Mark Mahoney. There's a convoluted area in the 80s where um I got I got injured real bad.

I got I was in bad act. I got blown up. Yeah. Lost my eye. Uh, got lots of fractures, lots of shrapnel. Some of it still comes out of me to this day. I had a piece of shrapnel come out right here, like two years ago. Just a little little hump.

Anyways, in 85, no, in 1986, I'd been talking for like two years. One of my good friends, I don't want to say his name, but um about learning it be an apprentice, you know. I didn't even know what an apprentice was, but it's like I want a tattoo. It's like, yeah, it's just not the right time. And then they were always like, um, I I'm going to say they, you know, I don't want to say a name, but they were always like, man, you're just you're just too nice of a person, man. We it'll this will change you and [ __ ] and you don't want to do this. And after like a year and a half, he was like, you know what? Um, so and so just finished um is going to be finishing soon.

So, I want to fit you in, man. I got to talk to somebody about it. You know, you got to get permission pin permission back then. Yeah. I want to talk to somebody about it, but um anyways, uh it looks like Sure, man. You you just keep going and I'll teach you. Yeah. And it it was a vague like, yeah, it's between you and so and so.

And um anyways, that weekend is when um my girlfriend at the time, which became my first wife. Yeah. And uh my best friend Steve, who ended up hitting on my first wife. Anyways, [ __ ] not at that time. But anyways, literally, we went out of town to celebrate and we went down to Mexico. People always want to know how to get blown up. That's what I'm telling you. Oh, okay.

Okay. Yeah. So, we went down we went down to Mexico and uh they have like these things called M80s. They have these things, you know, just the firecrackers. They have all these different things. Yeah. But we went down there with like a couple hundred because we wanted to buy the biggest [ __ ] fireworks they had. I've done the same thing.

Okay. So, you know those those ones that are big since they don't they don't go bang. Yeah. They go boom. Yeah. It's just different. It's very close to the the um July 4th fireworks. It's like crazy.

And we bought 10 and they were It was in 1986 and they were $10 each. Oh, [ __ ] In Mexico. So that tells you they were like $100 each things. And uh yeah, we we're blowing them up and people were telling telling us from like a tenth of a mile away, knock it the [ __ ] off. Yeah, we blew up an outhouse. like literally blew up just [ __ ] [ __ ] up a wooden outhouse. We were down Yeah. Down in Insanada or Labufodora.

A little farther than Insanada. Little partying involved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't shitfaced, but I was buzzed and that's what, you know, one of the reasons why I don't really like Corona no more. I haven't been able to drink a Corona since that day.

No [ __ ] And enjoy it. It's just a smell. It takes me back to a moment that was [ __ ] up. But um yeah, the [ __ ] we bought 10 of them and the 10th one is the one where I stuck my cigarette to it right here. Oh no. Yeah, it was just it was just right there and it [ __ ] did not use the fuse. The fuse was you know like that long. I touched my cigarette and it went it was [ __ ] weird.

Like I still remember floating like not your ears ringing and that was after Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you remember Saving Private Ryan? Did you see that movie? Uh, yeah. " There's um something blew up in front of Tom Hanks when he was on the bridge and it was kind of and you and it it's like you're kind of coming back into focus and it had um thrown me about 7 8 ft. I spun around in the air, landed face down on the hood of my friend's truck and um slid off and was realizing that I felt in slow motion the skin peel away from my skull and I felt my mouth.

I felt it tear in the back. It was slow motion. [ __ ] Why am I telling this? Oh, I don't Well, I think people people always [ __ ] want to know. So, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, it's it's a weird it's a weird sensation for each person has their own experience, but I went in very slow motion where it felt like it took about 20 to 30 seconds in the air, which must have been like boom boom, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But it was very slow motion. I felt it I felt it go and then that was fast. It slowed down and I felt everything tear. Oh my god. And I remember thinking, I'm going to feel bone when I went like that, but I didn't. Okay. So, I think what I felt was like the imp when your skin stretches really far from a from a hard impact.

Oh, okay. Because it tore my uvula off. It tore my Holy [ __ ] Down your throat. [ __ ] Yeah. My mouth was open. Um, it tore a whole bunch of gums and and there was also pieces of shrapnel. Yeah. whatever was pieces of stuff everywhere like glass.

My right side was um full of holes. It went through my Levis's. It went and it cracked this bone. It broke my nose. It cracked up here. Um and shrapnel, the big big piece um went in my eye and um cracked the back of my orbital. Oh my god, dude. And um I yeah I still remember thinking like I'm going to feel I remember when it went like that I went my face is ripping off inside my head.

I can't believe it didn't knock you out. Slow motion kind of I was very aware. Yeah. Yeah. That is insane. Um and it was slow motion but um [ __ ] why did I go off on that? I don't know. Okay.

So that's now I know why like and then I was in the hospital and um the first surgery was just to explore um the second surgery was to remove shrapnel. Okay. And the third and fourth surgeries were plastic surgeries. Okay. I initially my mom was a nurse. She said don't if something happens don't go to the hospital in Mexico. You'll get an infection. That's how people die.

Um, so we drove from Labouodora up to San Diego. We went into the San Diego emergency and that's where they did the first surgery. Yeah. So all the surgeries were in the States. Yes. And then and then after the first surgery um I remember telling uh my girlfriend like u Yeah. The doctor brought his son in this morning and pulled my bed out from the wall and had his his son was like nine or 10. Yeah.

" Oh, no. " Oh, wow. But anyways, I told my girlfriend and another good friend of mine, and then they took me from that hospital up to another hospital. Oh, okay. And Chock Children's Hospital. But I was in my 20s. But nonetheless, that's where I got my my shrapnel removed. So, the second surgery and then a couple days later, because I was getting they said if we don't do plastic surgery, which you don't have to have.

Yeah. Um plus they they wanted to start getting the eye ready for a uh prosthesis. Oh, all right. All right. Which Yeah, it didn't work out in the long run cuz I lost half of my bottom lid and a third of my top lid. So I don't have, you know, it's like prostesis fits in an opening like this, but I have an opening like that. So yeah. Yeah.

But um those plastic surgeries and then um got home from the hospital and about 10 days later my mom died. Oh man. Yeah. I swear my hair started growing in white that month. And you your girlfriend was pregnant at the time too. No. Okay. That Yeah.

There's a convoluted spot where I was going to get to start learning to professionally tattoo. In 1986, we went to celebrate. I was blown up. Yeah. And then I was dealing with a bunch of [ __ ] Yeah. And then um I kind of lost myself. My mom's sister in Florida, she knew me real well and she um told me, "Come, come live here. " Yeah.

Anyways, so I went there for a year and a half. Oh wow. Okay. And almost opened a tattoo shop in Florida just cuz all of my family, you know, my cousins are like, you know, cuz I was tattooing for the [ __ ] of it. " But yeah. " It it let's just like [ __ ] Anyways, it and I'm not saying that was totally the reason why he didn't after that. But I still remember that like saying, you know, like I've never seen a good oneeyed tattooer. And so that fell through and that was in ' 86 87 um 19.

And you know, I still would tattoo friends all the time, you know, at least all hand pokes still, right? You move to Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, like this right here, you know, like two hours.

Yeah. No doubt for it to be as solid as it is. Anyways, then in ' 91 when we were pregnant with Ian, my first son is when I went and talked to Mark Mahoney. Yeah. And he was working at Gilman shop, a tattoo mania. Okay. And um No [ __ ] Mark had, you know, done some some time in the in the later 80s and that's also [Music] [Laughter] but he was working um Gil at Gilmani shop and um he's like yeah Gil didn't like me you know like at first we we're friends now totally you know friends but back then I was what what would I have been I would have been like 27 29 years Were they Were they roughly around your same age at the time or a little old like Mark Bony and like me and Mark the same? Yeah.

Okay, cool. Yeah, G. I was trying to remember if you were like younger. I was born I think in ' 62. I was born in ' 63. Okay. Gail I think was born in 59. So you guys were in your late mid20s, mid to late 20s.

Like this would have been late 20s. Yeah. And then um yeah, my son Ian was born when I was 29. Anyways. Yeah. So you got to yours were pursuing uh you know Mark couldn't teach me at Mania. He he couldn't teach me at Mania. Gil was like I don't know you know I don't know [ __ ] another Orange County punk [ __ ] cuz that's you know as punk in the [ __ ] Oh okay.

Yeah. Not not black black flag punk more like Sex Pistols punk. Old old you know long-haired punk. Yeah. " And um he owes me one. And you got $400. " Yeah. And he goes, "All right.

Um give Rick a call and he'll tell you, you know, how to Anyways, I went down there to Rick and I'd seen him. I'd been kicked out of Bert Grims, but Okay. You know, I That was the Pike. Yeah. The Rose Tattoo at the Pike was the shop I hung out in the most was the Rose Tattoo or the Rose on the Pike they called it. Yeah, that was another Bob Shaw shop. Okay. Bob Shaw owned um the Rose and Burke Grims.

And anyways, Mark worked at the Rose and um that's where I used to go and hang out with Mark, but then he had worked in Anaheim at Tattoo Land and then he had his own shop, Shamrock Tattoo, and then he went to did a little time, got out and worked at Tattoo Mania. And um that's when this happened was when he was working at Tattoo Mania. And then I went down to see Rick and um and he's all you bring the money. That was the only thing you wanted to know. How did he say it? It was it was funny. He goes he goes he goes uh you got the money. " He got I got the money I was going to use for rent.

Not saying it's snotty like that. " And he goes, "Too bad. " And and um he goes he gave a a call to National Tattoo Supply and back and told them that I would be calling and then I got my power supply and started getting stuff from National. That was Dang. So that was like your your end to be able to actually legitimately order. Yeah. And then Rick would work at uh Burke Grahams. He was the manager of Brams, but he would work there from like 11 to 5, 11 to 6.

Okay. Night crew would come in at 5 or 6. And then um I would work my day job. This is when Ian was in diapers, you know, um maybe right before he was born, but I would work my day job where I was working at a um custom print house where we did we would retouch old 1800's photos or we would do head shot for movie stars, Michelle Fefeifer type head shot. Yeah. And I would work there from like 4:00 in the morning until like 11. And then I would go down and hang out with Rick and watch him if somebody came in to get tattooed. Or he would teach me how to make needles, make machines, how to paint, flash, and you all that's the type of stuff he would do there.

Great. Um, but he also had apprentices that were working there that he had apprenticed before like Scully. Um, and and I think Mule was already tattooing or it was I can't remember uh Douggee Douggee Mitts. Anyways, they paid him money for their apprenticeships. Yeah. And and um I don't know what I don't know what Rick owed Mark. Rick helped me out for nothing. Um we became really good friends.

Um, I would I would go down there like at noon and then leave when or before the night shift came in. , okay? Like if he was coming in that night, I would leave at like 3, you know, because he he he would have been [ __ ] pissed if Rick was helping. I don't know if he wasn't in the loop of permissions, maybe. I don't know. Anyways, um, and he was a cool guy, too, but definitely different. Like he he didn't keep a machete on his hip like the other guys. He kept a hatchet on it.

It just different. Spicy dude. He was a different guy. Even his wife used to get in hatchet fights. Oh my god. They were they were funny. But anyways, Rick helped me out that way. But it was like Rick was like, "Yeah, man.

" Cuz he didn't want to get no [ __ ] from like Skully who had worked off his apprentichip. Oh, yeah. as a [ __ ] a new guy. Paying your college dues by being the [ __ ] janitor for a couple years and I wasn't doing that. So that was one of those things where it's a trip you you know I I've been tattooing since the late '7s but only professional since ' 91. That's when I started learning from Rick how to be professional. Yeah. So I'd work my day job then I'd hang out with Rick.

I'd go home and I'd tattoo people at night and then um I'd bring them into Rick even for him to look at the tattoos and um that that went on for uh two two and a half three years. Yeah. Of him getting me to be a professional tattooer. You know, I didn't know how to make ink color ink, you know. Yeah. So all this stuff that you know I knew would be like a professional tattooer as opposed to a scratcher which I considered myself a scratcher. Now I would have been called a handpoke tattooer but nonetheless that's the way I thought of it and that's what everybody considered it man. If you're not professional you're a scratcher.

So I was learning how to be a professional tattooer. Yeah. And then um in 94 is when I got a job with Carrie Barbara and um everybody was tripped out too cuz I was like like the first traditional from the traditional world meshing with the new school school. Yeah. And it it was like it was a big it was a big deal for some people. They're like, "No way. You got a job at Carrie Shop. You're the first one of us, man.

" That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Even though she'd been tattooing since like 1980. Yeah. Yeah. But definitely she's pushing the envelope on her style. Yeah.

She's the first one to do good color portraits. Yeah. That's I Yeah, I remember going in there before I Paul Rogers idolized her ability to do beautiful realistic color. Yeah. Yeah. She was the She was definitely that. But anyway, she gave me a job. She's like, "Well, we'll see.

" What was it? She I remember somebody told me Yeah. Carrie They just heard Carrie Barbasa's hiring um because she just expanded the shop from this big to this big. Yeah. And so she could have, you know, someone else come in and give her money because they're tattooing for her. Whatever. That's how you make money, right? For you.

Can't make money doing it. You got to make money taking it. Anyways, uh that's a joke. [ __ ] joke. Diversify. It is with a knife. Yeah. Yeah.

know she uh she's like we'll see we'll see you know we'll see how it works out. I remember I met her and she's like well she's like um I how come you're here? Don't you guys hate us? And I'm like I'm like no I you know personally I remember seeing her in magazines and [ __ ] but I didn't you know but she wasn't like oh my god yes. Then the next day she called and said, "Um, you know what? " And I found out later Rick gave her a call. Okay. " That's what I was going to ask is like how the transition went from that shot.

Yeah. Rick did me a favor. Mark did a favor giving me to Rick. Rick did me a favor giving me to Carrie Barb. Huge. So working with Carrie Barbara was your first full professional full time. So you were just learning and just practicing the Yeah, for three years I was tattooing um at least three to four nights a week, sometimes seven nights a week at home. Oh, okay.

So yeah, I would funny thing like Okay, Josh, uh we used to call him Dizzle 20 years ago. Okay. So, Josh, he was saying I remember one of the things on the TV show was he I don't know why that why Clerk was telling me how how much weight he'd lost when I was learning to tattoo cuz I was like, "Man, you're not taking this [ __ ] seriously. " Oh, yeah. Because me when I was learning, I was working a [ __ ] full-time 40hour plus and then learning with Rick and then tattooing at night and then getting three to five hours of sleep. sometimes two to three hours of sleep. Damn. And doing it again and again and again.

And I had gotten I'm 6'2. Yeah. I had gotten down to 125 pounds. Oh my dude. It was just And I was given also giving all my money to alimony and child support. So, um, I didn't eat a lot. I got really [ __ ] skinny. So, I just thought And I remember everybody that I've ever seen as an apprentice, they would get skinny.

No [ __ ] Back then, you know, you just you're working so [ __ ] much. skinnier and you don't have money to [ __ ] eat steak. So anyways, I still remember Dizzle like tripping out like I don't know why he thinks I should lose weight since I'm learning that tattoo. So then Barbara's your experience with Carrie was amazing or you learned a lot there I would imagine. Yeah, she's definitely um if it weren't for her, I wouldn't have been able to to afford to to pay my children's support and alimony. Yeah. You know, and and it's it's just a blessing, you know. You got to Did she spend I mean, you guys became friends and she got to spend a lot of time with her.

She actually had me manage um manage for her for a couple years until I quit managing because that's a whole different managing. It's two different hats. It's not. Yeah. So, it's like I'm going to give you um 85% instead of 60 60%. But I'm still bringing them less money cuz I don't have time to tattoo. Yeah. So, percentage of nothing is nothing.

But anyways, yes. Uh yeah, we became really good friends. I I remember like there's some of the things I've learned from Carrie is like you can't just say everybody heals a certain way and here's the afterare. You can't. It's everybody's skin's different. Plus me and Carrie learned each of our techniques are different. Just the way she stretches the skin. " Um because Carrie basically I've I've always done natural heal.

Okay. Which is all you know all it was back in the day was keep your tattoo dry, kill bacteria for the first couple of days with rubbing alcohol. Oo. Okay. That's it. Straight. That's the way tattooing was was was a tattoo's ugly while it's healing. So nobody was going like, "Oh, I got a tattoo last week.

" because you're just going to see ugly colored bacon on your arm, right? So, that's a norm for my generation. But also, the way that I tattoo doesn't heal good the way Carrie Barbara has her clients heal. Okay? You know, a shop has to have an an umbrella. Uh, it should at least some sort of an ally explaining. You have to have an umbrella afterare where everybody's doing the same thing. That way, if there's a variable, it's easier to find out what the variable was and it protects the shop.

You know, if nobody's been having any weird reactions with any clients and everybody's doing the same thing and then some client comes in and goes, I didn't give this to myself cuz I was at the hospital rubbing bacteria all over my tattoo. You did this. But then you can say, well, nobody else had any problems in the past. We're all using the same umbrella coverage. But anyways, I learned we learned together. It's like when she would have her clients heal with the way that I've always or Rick or Mike or Mark, anybody would have their client heal the tattoo, it didn't didn't heal right for her. She was using like uh A&D and wrapping it with cellophane or Yeah. So, um when I did that, it it really made the tattoos very milky and blurry.

very milky and blurry. Yeah. But when she does that, it doesn't. Um, when she had her clients do natural heels, their scabs were like five layers of skin deep, you know, and it can't go deeper than three of the remove tattoos. So, yeah. Yeah. We just we just learned like, well, there's no, you know, she's like she was like, "Oh, it's I'm excited because I get to ask you like what do old schoolers do here? What do traditional artists do here?

What how do you guys think about this? And what did traditional artists do? And like stretching the skin and all that stuff's different. Yeah. So, yeah, it was great. Do you get to work with some other great artists there? She was always She notoriously had like Yeah. Always coming through.

Yeah. Yeah. Lot of travelers. Paul Booth. Yeah. It was pretty normal just to have anybody from Europe or the West Coast Japanese tattooers um would always come in and spend a week or two. You know, that was the '9s. There were not a lot of tattooers at that time.

Like I said before, like 8,000 tattooers in the world, I think in '94. Damn. So then in the '90s, the tattoo magazine started coming around too, right? Yeah. Like the tattoo magazine. Okay. Easy writer magazine used to have an annual tattoo section. Okay.

Yeah. So that's Pisano Publishing. Okay. So I grew up with Easy Rider in our house. So I would always like look Easy Rider magazine um had an annual I believe and then it slowly turned into a monthly tattoo section and then uh they would have an annual separate mini mag. Yeah. the same size but you know less pages of of Easy Rider fans sending in their tattoo pictures. Yeah.

And then that would that's how it [ __ ] happened, man. Is is like Easy Riders had a tattoo section in in the magazine and and then they started putting out an annual Christmas or something um edition where you got Easy Rider magazine plus a bonus tattoo magazine. " So then they made Tattoo magazine. Yeah. It's it's all it is is just an off brand from Easy Writers. Okay. Yeah. So I had that in the house, too.

I remember that. Like stealing those from my dad and that's where I learned what tribal was. The only place you could see pictures of tattoos in the early 80s was a section in Easy Rider magazine. Yeah. Yeah. And Carrie was real good about promoting herself through the using the magazines, right? took her. Did you learn a lot through her and working at that shop on how to promote yourself also too?

And [ __ ] no. I am the worst at self-promotion. I am so not good at self-promotion. I'm not I'm not I'm just not good at it. You never got into like your pictures? Yes, I [ __ ] done it. I [ __ ] done it. Yeah.

And it's like um Well, I was in magazines a lot. Okay. Carrie is the one that would help helped. Okay, good. Absolutely. That's great. Yeah. Yes, but I am the worst at self-promotion.

I'm like, man, if I've got like 30 paintings to sell, they just sit there and collect dust. I'm just like, it's embarrassing to try to sell [ __ ] It's embarrassing to try to [ __ ] make yourself look like something special. That's just me, though. Yeah, it's I think the artists in general, we have we struggle with that. Like Yeah. A businessman Yeah. and a tattooer coming together is is success. And I've I've always been bad at business.

I I'm so bad at business. You you stick with your craft and it's good. You you've always you've had a long successful career. You're the body of work that you have is like it's man I mean for someone not good at promoting yourself. You seem to get clients in the chair for a really long time and now you're knock was this transition to uh like have you always really been focused on Japanese work? I mean Oh man. and you start really here's here's a trippy thing is I've been drawing since I was little. I can remember in church we were Baptists when I was a kid and I I would bring the typing paper and I would draw people's faces and I remember by the time I was seven or eight I could draw a face and you could tell who it was.

Yeah, that's great. Okay. And I've been drawing at least two three hours a week ever since I was four. At least you know if not a lot more. But when I was 11, 11 years old, there was a magic store in Costa Mesa. This is when we were living in Huntington Beach, Costa Mesa. Um was right up the street. I would ride my bike down to the magic store.

Just dug it. Yeah. This magic store used to have, and this was in 1974. They used to have um tattoos that you could put on, you know, the temporary temporary tattoos, but full size like sleeves and back pieces. This magic shop, they sold some other stuff. It was a novel. So anyways, um I can remember buying like um buying like a a a Japanese rose, which is what I called it, but it was peie. Okay.

Red peie temporary. 50 and that was so much [ __ ] money. Anyways, I was in that magic store one time and the owner um you know he knew I wasn't stealing. I could hang out in there and I would I would read in there. I would be in there for like an hour and a half, sometimes three hours cuz my home life was a little weird. I would take off. Anyways, that was one of the places I would take off for hours. Yeah.

And one time I was in there and three Japanese men came in and um they were the ones that were selling him the oh the temporary temporary tattoos. They were Japanese. They were connected. They were they were going out to Hollywood, LA, San Diego, San Francisco, all these places and um selling different things. And one of them was those. And and anyways, and knowing now they they were definitely Yaka. But really, well, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Tattoos 1974. " And they they had a translator. So I think it was two the two guys and then a translator. Anyways, so three of them he they they asked him to lock the door and I remember um he locked the door. He knew I was in there and he went like just you know stay over there. Don't [ __ ] around. I'm doing business.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I remember they took off their shirts and I had never seen that kind of tattoo before. That was the day. That was the day. and they had, you know, they didn't take off their pants, but they took off their shirts completely. And I remember how proud they stood there.

And I don't know, it was just I was like, that was the one spark where I was like, that's [ __ ] beautiful. That's like a painting, but on the skin. It's not a picture on the skin. It just I don't know. like a scene out of a movie. I could just see your little kid. Oh my god. A little kid or something, you know, around.

So, ever since then, I mean, I started like a love for it at that time. There was nothing you could purchase back then or anything, but man, every once in a while, a movie would have I was like, those are so different than everybody's tattoos that I know. So, I got I got very well established, very well known for my realism in black and gray. black and gray realism. Okay. No way. And in the 90s, you might remember that nobody liked traditional tattoos. Yeah.

It was just like, "No, man. " And, you know, just like that's what everybody wanted. And I became very well known and established as realistic black and gray. I got to do something Japanese one to five times a year if I was lucky. And those were the [ __ ] you know, he's like I people go like, "Hey man, just do anything you want. " Okay, I'd love to do a koi. No, I don't want one of those. or do anything you want.

" Nobody wanted traditional. That's when that's when um the graffiti influences coming in stuff too, right? Graffiti, I think, is the surge, you know, that changed from 93 to 2003, that big influx of tattooers, it seemed like, were graffiti artists. Yeah. Yeah. The graffiti artists came in and then all of a sudden, I had to learn how to do graffiti. I'd never drawn graffiti. I wasn't a criminal doing graffiti.

I've been into tattoos. I feel like I became a decent painter, a decent artist because of drawing tattoos. I don't feel like I was an artist that learned how to do tattoos. It just seems flip-flop. Mine I think mine's just different than a lot of people. A lot of graffiti artists. I had to learn graffiti. I had to learn geer, you know, or biomechanical.

Yeah, I even had what I was doing. Carrie called it organic bio, which was biomechanical, but it was organic tissues and plant matters and stuff. You remember like the leaf man, the leaf? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's kind of where it all came from doing leaves and but it looks biomechanical.

Yeah. Well, and just But there was no mechanics. The flow of working on the body. You started doing a lot of drawing on magazines started printing was my organic bio portraiture and that's how I became established or enough work to pay my bills. Yeah. Were you doing conventions at the time? I mean were conventions like conventions they were real small and intimate back in the day, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, the first convention I remember going to was in 81 and it was on the Queen Mary. Oh wow. Okay. And um yeah, it was like a bunch of guys in their 40s and 50s and I was 18 years old. I didn't know they didn't. Lot lots of lots of gay men that really really were like to me. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was it was um Yeah. The Queen Mary in ' 81. That's I think that's the the first convention I went to. But I wasn't a tattooer going there. Yeah. I tattooed, but I never considered myself a professional tattooer.

You know, Rick Walters has the same history. Is he started tattooing himself and friends when he was 13. Okay. And then he didn't learn professional tattooing. That was in the 1950s. He didn't start learning uh professional tattooing until 1970s when he got out of prison. Okay. Yeah.

He was connected affiliated. Phil Sims taught Rick Walters how to tattoo I think in 1971 when Rick got out of prison. Maybe two. 71 or two is when he got out of prison for shooting a a guy's face with a shotgun. Anyways, he shot he shot the side of his face off. Holy [ __ ] And he did he did time he did six or seven years not in the shop, but he'd been tattooing since the 1950s because he'd been doing hand poke and then professional. So it's taken me a long time to absorb that. That's okay to say I've been tattooing since 1979.

Yeah, that's even though I wasn't in a shop. Rick said the same thing. He's been tattooing since 1959, I think. Whatever it was, 57. Even though he'd only been in a shop since 71. Yeah. Damn. Damn.

Oh my god. So you have you have so many ties to all these old any other like just real great old school guys that you that you kind of as far as like being friends enough to have dinner with and stuff. Yeah. Just like it was hard for me to talk myself into doing the TV show. Yeah. It's hard for me to be a named dropper. Oh yeah. No, I just And it's awkward for me, but I have very very special very special ties and moments.

Right now all my friends are dead. Yeah. So, it's it's a different time, but they've all passed away. La. Tuttle was a good guy. He was a cool guy. I got to have lunch with him and Yeah, I I had lots of dinners with him. He was funny.

Yeah, he's full of Did you know that Ly Ly was um totally blackalled from the tattoo community in the 70s? I didn't. A lot of people don't know what um there was a show called the Mike Douglas Show and it was on in the afternoon after school. I remember um Lyall Tuttle was on the Mike Douglas show and he was saying how the tattooers um are they don't know how to draw their stuff doesn't look good but his stuff did and he was like name dropping by tattooing Janice Joplain and you know it was and he upset a lot of [ __ ] were pissed at him really took him I remember it was the 90s once he started being embraced by the younger people coming up. Okay. Rick knew him the whole time. I think Lyle might have done done a couple years at Bert Grims even in when Rick was manag or in the 70s.

But wow. They they they were always friends. But Rick was like, "Watch out. " Damn. But it took a long time for Lyall to, you know, get that off his shoulders. " Yeah, I could see how that could piss a lot of people off. Yeah, I guess there's people doing And that was when tattooers, you know, like even Rick, he never considered himself an artist. " Even though he drew all of this [ __ ] on, you know what I mean?

Half of it he just tattooed without drawing a single thing. Yeah. It's uh but he's like, "No, I ain't an artist. " He But he used to call me an artist. He he uh well because you know what Rick did uh when I first started there maybe after I'd hung out with him for a couple months when Mark sent me down. " I remember. " And I brought down a stack of drawings that thick, all on just like, you know, yeah, typing paper, Xerox paper at that time. But um and he he he like looked through it and I remember Scully was there too and he cracked up when he saw me bring it in because he knew what was going to happen.

" Yeah. " That's cool. And it was like it was a year later. Oh, okay. Okay. He had all my [ __ ] I remember Skully was cracking up cuz he knew he was going to do that. Some wild stories. And uh you know talking about just [ __ ] popping off in tattoo shops.

And back in the day it was like a like you said it was like every 3 to 6 months like something weird would [ __ ] happen. And our shop we didn't open until 2003 and we were in a kind of an interesting area. So but still it was like that. And nowadays like luckily it's pretty mellow. But yeah it was it's always been like you know some people wear tattoos as their flag or their banner. um as their club. And um one thing that I I hope I've done is helped bring tattooing by the TV show, you know what I mean? Help bring it in into the world of being respected.

Like I used to um have people not even drink out of the same [ __ ] drinking fountain as me. You know what I mean? Or cross the street because I'm tattooed. They don't know me. Yeah. But um these days that don't I I used to hate going to the bank because security would follow me everywhere as if I'm there to [ __ ] rob the place. " Yeah. So I I'm I'm proud and I hope that I am one of the people that helped bring it out of only crime thinking.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I like all all aspects of it. Absolutely. I got, you know, I love I love all of it. But yeah, it's like uh it's it's nice to not be just thought of as people used to call me scumbag cuz I have tattoos. Friends even would go, "Man, that's so scummy. " And I'd be like, I I'll never talk to you about it again.

Yeah. I remember getting out of a car in Houston and my I don't know, I was like maybe 99 or 98 or something. And I remember this I was with my dad and he jumped out of the car and I think he had shorts on at the time and shirt, you know, it was pretty heavily tattooed and some dude just gets out of the car next to us and looks at him. " And then I had to like calm my dad down and get him away from him. I'm like, "Let's just go and we're you're with your dad. That's been said to me. Let's just go to dinner. like get the [ __ ] out of here.

You say that tattoo guy, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Obviously a very condescending tone. Yeah. Yeah. It was so It was so different. Yeah.

Yeah. With all of your passion kind of channeling into Japanese work, have were you able to uh have you traveled over the years and been over to Japan or No. No. One thing that the TV show did was it syndicated in Japan after after it was off the air here. 2007 was the end of the show and so 2008 it became syndicated in like Greece and yeah which we never think about if you don't know how the business works and um um Horio the first reached out to me the first thing he said was um are you really blind in one eye and and I was like yeah man I like got [ __ ] up he couldn't speak English but um he told me later that he had his apprentice translate for him so we wrote emailed back and forth plus wrote paper mailed back and forth and um but yeah he was like that guy's wearing a [ __ ] eye patch because he's trying to be cool because he's blind in one eye or was blind in one eye.

Anyways, he was he was like offended that I would be wearing or pretending like I was whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But nonetheless, I called his bluff. And then then he uh we wrote back and forth a lot. And that's cool. So I consider him a mentor, you know, for that year, year and a half before his death. It it was uh it was maybe 2 years of us chitchatting.

Also, um I got to hang out with Koname for three four days. Um Konami Ozuma. Do you know who that is? I don't know. Um the names sound familiar, by the Yeah, he he's he was he did he did tattoo in the ' 60s '7s bit, but he's the uh painter that did the silk paintings of tattooed women. Oh, okay. They were really [ __ ] famous in the '9s and the 2000s all the way up until Zuma Koname. Um I got to hang out with him or Ren a little bit before she got cancer.

Um but that was here. I have to be honest I when I was making good money Yeah. I was supporting my children. Yeah. And that was what was important. Yeah. You know, I'm I'm proud to say I was I was never criminally late ever with child support or alimony, you know. So that's cool.

That's just the one thing that I could I could never travel. Yeah. So yeah, but yeah, I've befriended some some I mean even um sound like you were in good places where a lot of people were coming through. Oritoshi the first used my um my room uh for 3 days that he was here in town. That was at Hart and Huntington. But I I had to like cancel my appointments for him. So I said as long as I get to watch you. So I get to watch for Toshi work for 3 days straight.

Plus his translator was real helpful with me. But uh I consider you know Hikio first and Uzuma Konami very very strong influence. Yeah. I'm helpful in a lot of ways. Like Ozuma Konami is the one that told me like quit fighting your natural westernized flavor. And because I was like oh yeah I was like my stuff doesn't look authentic. Yeah. Yeah.

And he was like, I wouldn't have even noticed your work if it was if it was you. Now, he said that the reason I knew who you were is because your work has stood out to me obviously as somebody that has a passion for traditional Japanese. Yeah. And not just, you know, oh, I'm going to stick 14 antlers on a [ __ ] dragon and I'm going to [ __ ] show them how it's done type of thing. I I I've been in love with the Japanese tattoo and it's only been since like 2007 or 8 that people started accepting or liking traditional Japanese tattoo. Right now it seems like there's thousands and thousands and thousands of tattooers specializing in traditional Japanese and uh it's awesome. Yeah. But yeah, definitely uh before 2010 there was only a few man.

There was only a few in the whole [ __ ] world outside of Japan. Yeah. That um loved it. And I've loved it forever. And it's nice to finally be able to focus on what I love the most. Do you paint large scale like pretty regularly these days or have you uh my my uh my tendon tore my tendon right here came loose? So every once in a while I test it to see but it's been years. It's like if I tattoo I can't paint.

If I paint I can't tattoo. tattoo. How So, how many days a week do you roughly tattoo right now? You have you have a private studio here in town or Yeah, I'd like to say that. Um or I work late night in friends shops. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.

Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't been to where you go where you work, but uh so you'll do uh five days a week. That's a lot. Yeah. Normal. Normal.

Yeah. Five days a week. My days off. Yeah. Mondays, Tuesdays, my days off. Yeah. But it it's it's been it's been sporadic. Uh this past year's definitely been different.

Yeah, this year was rougher. I mean, if you're saying it seems like there's a lot more tattoo shops. Oh, more than like there used to be 8,000 people tattooing in the world. Now I think there's 800,000 people tattooing in the world. " Yeah. Yeah. And they used to just leave us alone. And there's so many tattooers now.

So anyways, there's a lot of of of tattooers doing traditional Japanese. Or no, you know what? Not traditional, but Japanese. Yeah. Modernized, westernized. I still love the true traditional. That's what I love. That's just like, you know, I still I still love Van Go more than Da Vinci or or Michelangelo.

I I like that rough look. It's like traditional Aztec um art, traditional Mayan art, traditional Hawaiian art or Mayori art. These are traditional old old styles. Yeah. Traditional Japanese is the same to me. It's a very old style. Sticking with certain subject matter and whatnot. I mean, well, it's a style.

It's a style. A lot of people don't think about style anymore. They just think like, oh, it's a dragon or a koi, so I'm going to I'm going to do these wacky lips and eyelashes, you know, or something like that. Well, it's just a style. It's like if you were to say draw or paint in the style of Veno and then you you love that style and you're not like trying to, you know, like say I'm the original or nothing, but you love Veno style and then you do that style. Yeah. Or or that. Well, it's a style.

" It really is like that with Japanese, but it's these days it's been stepped on and changed, which is fine. Yeah. But I love the original. Yeah. So that's great. You know, the biggest change between uh true traditional Japanese tattooing from, you know, like 1830s to 1880s is when it really from Kunoshi became a style. Okay? It all the traditional Japanese style is is kunoshi style.

Okay? If you can't, this is this is what I've been told by Zuma Koname and Horoshi and Horio is if if you can't say that looks like Kuni Yoshi might have drawn it, then it's not traditional. But I'm not saying traditional is better than westernized. I'm not saying it's better than modernized. It's just just like traditional Hawaiian tattoos are not well, you say what you want, but don't change those, but go ahead and change Japanese. Well, I don't know. It's a it's a weird thing to me that it's been so changed, but still called traditional. That's like when um Sheay uh is that his name?

Where is she? uh was they they awarded him the best traditional Japanese tattooer in in like 2008 or 2010 and his style and he said I am not traditional Japanese. I this is this is a different thing than traditional. Yeah. So it's Yeah. It's just a different style. It's beautiful. I love watercolor tattoos.

I don't do them. I I I I love you know these things. They are specific. If if you're saying I'll do a watercolor tattoo, then you go and do a graffiti uh with bold black lines and well, it's not. You've changed it, but you're still calling it that. That's what confuses me sometimes where um I love the traditional 1800s style. The big difference between the 1800s and now is the backgrounding like more dimension or or I mean I'm thinking I think a lot of people don't even realize that you know the isobars the uh just your that those weren't being done in the mid 1800s at all. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What were they doing? I just big um blocks like fades or you know I think in my bag I actually have a I didn't bring it for any reason except for I grab it real quick. Yeah, [ __ ] it. This is traditional Japanese mid 1800s. Okay.

Do you see the isobars? Okay. The tattoos that these people are wearing, they don't have the isobars. They have the cascades. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Those cascades eventually turned into the isobars.

Okay. But see what's poking out from under. There's a great one. Okay. So, as far as the backgrounding, it's slowly been morphing into what you see today. Yeah, like even H O Kio, what I loved about his work is his work looked like it was done in around 1920. But that's one thing too is like just studying photos of tattooed people like there's photos that were taken in the 1920s and 30s of 80year-old tattooed men from Japan that were tattooed when they were like 20. Oh wow.

So they were tattooed in say 1850 and such. They do not have the tight isobars. Yeah. They have big It's just different. The background has been changing. That's where you as an artist get to show your own flavor. Yeah. Um and of course the uh you know the shifts of Okay, there's more than Kunoshi, but Kunoshi is the godfather of traditional Japanese tattooing.

Okay, a lot of people don't know that either. " But Hocusai only actually ever drew three tattooed people, period. " And then he put out hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of paintings with tattooed people. He started tattooing people. He started drawing four tattoos. It's like um Kun Yoshi is the godfather of the Japanese. Damn. It's a beautiful.

I didn't I mean this Yeah. 1800s, late 1800s. Is that Well, yeah. The the traditional Japanese tattoo or say like a back piece has been being done since like the 1830s, but um this is what it looked like back then. This is a depiction of a tattooed man. " No. you you probably at this time would have sung the the man that he drew or this might have been one of the people that Kunoshi tattooed anyways. So it's it's like saying um there's a Van Go movement.

Yeah. And then people are still doing Van Go and then 200 years later which is now compared to Kunoshi is not connected to Van Go. So yeah, it's like that's all it is is very traditional thinking, very traditional style, you know, like a cartoon style. If if if the guy that drew say the Peanuts like Snoopy and such started drawing Batman, it would be in the Peanuts or Schultz style. Yeah. So basically the traditional Japanese tattoo is of the kunoshi style. Yeah. I think what people do now is they just um don't like traditional.

It's that simple. Well, it's [ __ ] I mean within the tattoo realm. I mean there's the the styles that younger tattooers are being exposed to nowadays. It it's right. So where we your eye, you know, was like you were either Japanese or traditional. And then I started seeing black and gray like come out of like LA coast. Yeah. Yeah.

So those were like the three options to do as far as artists. And well then the graffiti like all the graffiti just started taking all of those and mashing them up. Like the graffiti kids would get in there and you know you're more of your like new school type stuff. And I guess that's probably what I would fall under. And like that's was what I was incredibly fascinated with cuz if somebody came in and started saying like I'm doing what you you know love and [ __ ] and then you look at it and you're like well that doesn't look like it but you can call it that. It's okay. It's weird. I don't compete and I don't think tattoos are sports you know there's no winners.

No no totally. It's it's just what I love is the tradition that's really connected to Kunoshi. Yeah. That's great. I love it. like you you when you're looking through like your social media specifically, it's just really really cool. It's really impressive. So that really made me proud about um in 2009 is when I put up my current website.

Okay. 2009. And and um [ __ ] it's still still rolling. Uh it's my website. Anyways, um yeah, I wrote basically here's one thing that I'll run into is like somebody say, "Hey, I want to get tattooed by you, man. I saw some stuff he did. Okay. So then they come down and I go, you know, what are you thinking to do?

And they're going, I want to get like five dragons on my left arm and and like, you know, 15 koi on my right. And I'm like, well, a dragon's head is this big. Yeah. Um they're like, what? And anyways, I started running into people not understanding what I love is the traditional and people just being confused by it because they've been seeing a full dragon that you know a 25 foot long dragon shrunk down to 4 in or whatever that's which is beautiful and awesome like you know that to me is a specialty micro tattooing that's a specialty but then they were confused when I would say well like but no I do I do traditional style I'm way more traditional. " Anyways, I wrote a page on my website. It's about the traditional Japanese style. Yeah, that's and it explains it.

It's It's like a thesis, you know? I mean, it ain't short, but it really made me proud because going through this uh there there's a a lot of cut and pastes in in the a lot of this I wrote. A lot of this was from my website. " I go, "Fuck no. That's so cool that the [ __ ] Boston Museum of Fine Arts Yeah. found info from me that that they felt helped describe That's awesome. " Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, it's it's it's its own style and it gets it gets hard for some people to understand. You know what I've I've learned? " You know why? Why? I'm like, "I don't know. " Yeah. And they just [ __ ] and they love them. Or, you know, some people like, you know, like diecast models.

Yeah. I love traditional Japanese tattoo. And I have since I was 11 when I was in that [ __ ] magic store. Yeah, that's cool. Gobmacked. Is there any newer newer artists that you can kind of think of that um that you're seeing out there that you're enjoying their work and maybe influencing you or I'm seeing a lot of the real traditional looking from the South Koreans and sometimes the Vietnamese. Um theirs looks very Japanese. Um they they don't so much use Kunoshi though.

Okay. They they use a couple different artists more of the the artist that designed, you know, like uh Kunoshi, he designed his paintings to be for the Ukui, which are like, you know, 17 in by 12 in, whatever the size is. That's the that's the size that he designed. But um other things that were being done that work really translate well to tattoo is like the little Japanese card games. They didn't have TV, you know what I mean? They had they had, you know, like a a drawer full of entertainment, which could be things on paper. Yeah. So, anyways, there's there's um there's a style that's more along the lines of the Japanese card toys of the 1800s that really looks good as tattoos.

Yeah, we'll have to. But it seems like they they really really love the traditional Japanese style as well. Yeah. Like once you start getting into more of like a storybook airbrush style Yeah. You know, like airbrush story book realism. It's just it's just different as all. It's it's it's beautiful. Yeah.

You know, it's but it's not what blows my hair back. That's all. It's like uh I I like the the old Chevy. Yeah. So that's fun, man. That's cool. But as far as Yeah. new artists.

Um, I rarely see one that I see as very connected to Kunoshi. Um, but all of the old ones, you know, my my my world comes from uh the 70s. Yeah. And the tattooers of that time, very connected to their teachers who were very connected to their teachers who were very connected to their teachers. And right now it's a little different. It is really different right now. I remember when I was working with Kell, he was um he was like, "Oh, I don't know, man. " And he's all what?

" And I don't think people pick up on it that Horoshi 3 has evolved into his own world, his own style. Yeah. And he himself, if you go back and read interviews, you'll see where he says starting around that time, 2006, 200 Yeah. You don't know that I I no longer doing true traditional. I'm doing my own style. Yeah. Which is saying I I'm not doing traditional. Don't copy meat and thinking you're learning traditional.

Okay. Okay. But a lot of Westerners that was their first exposure to toe in the door to be able to study it because it it's it's not been easy. I didn't have books. You know how I used to be able to study the Japanese tattoo. I I learned early on you don't need to look at the tattoos to learn the Japanese traditional tattoo. You need to study Kunoshi. " And I go, "Kunioshi artwork.

" But the imagery, that's where this is. This is a traditional traditional. It's not this person couldn't draw a human face. It's a style and that's based on kunoshi. That's all it is. Okay. But as far as people thinking they're learning traditional tattoos by studying Yeah. Horoshi the third.

Yeah. Okay. Or Hor Toshi the first. It's like, you know, they're they're doing their own thing. Horritoshi is more traditional than Hor Yoshi the third, but his backgrounding is very modernized. Very very with the isobars that are like, you know, one inch isobars. beautiful, but they're they're they're not traditional. They've changed with him.

He's he's started doing traditional backgrounding as well, but even his backgrounding has become um less asymmetric. You know, asymmetrics are part of traditional Japanese art. Yeah. And so to to symmetricize and and balance things is a very modern um individual thing. Yeah, but that's his style. And then Horoshi third, his his style is it's just not traditional. But yeah, it it's beautiful and you can learn a [ __ ] lot. But once you start getting into like 19 colors, you know, a traditional Japanese tattoo is is is a twocolor tattoo.

It's black, gray, and red. A two that you know that's a twocolor tattoo. You know why? No. Gray is not Well, yeah. It's it's faded black. Yes. So, black and red is a two-color tattoo and that's the original color tattoo was red which they make made with a type of toxic ink which would put them on deathbed for 3 days.

Do you know that anybody any Japanese uh person that has red on them that was tattooed before the 1980s was on their deathbed for 3 days because of the red the red and it's it's a it's it's just showing your bravery. It's showing you're willing to shine brightly. You know, the the the hopes thing, you know, is is is the red was made with a toxic mineral that would put you that's why most of the peies the red pianies that were done from like the 1980s and older are always around 3 in. Oh. Put you on a fine line and you'd be bedridden or die. Good lord. So, I'm guessing they learned that the hard way at times like by some guy. Yeah.

No, absolutely. People died in the 80s. People died in the 70s. People died in the '60s, '50s, 40s. Do you know what was specific that was in there? I mean, what what the hell were they put? Oh, okay. Yeah, that's wild.

Yeah, that's how they made their red. And that was the first color. Yeah, but you could only do a little bit at a time. But if you're if you're if you're afraid and if you're I don't know, a wimp, you'll only get this much. If you're very brave, you'll get a full three inches. Whoa. Oh, and then your body would metabolize that and you would work your way through it. And yeah, it's a poison bas and the mineral the residue would stay in in your fatty globial layer, but the toxin take 3 days for you'd be very you'd be on your deathbed for 3 days.

The bigger the more red you got, the more challenging death you were doing. And I've met some guys that were tattooed in the 60s and 70s with those reds and it makes me very humbled to be around them. It's like they're they're they're scary [ __ ] Yeah. And Yeah. They not afraid of not afraid of red. On top Well, just on top of the whole tattooing experience itself being a big deal. Then you're and having to work through that. That's wild.

Yeah. But that's one of the things I love about the traditional bodysuit is it's way more profound. It's very special. Yeah. You know, so not only am I just like into tattoos, but that whole thing was it was different than tattoos. It was like there's something different that their pride. Okay. They should be proud.

You know, you have to torture yourself for a decade to get a bodysuit. Yeah. you know, um, if you go in every two weeks, um, because of the swelling and and the difficult time your body has for dealing with larger, I don't think a lot of people realize that getting a, you know, a 10-in tattoo in one session, you know, like, oh, we did this in 6 hours and it stopped hurting and all this stuff. Like, no. When you're working on a bodysuit, it's a whole different realm. It's not the same healing. Healing is devastating. You know what I mean?

Nothing heals easy. The bigger you go, the harder the heel. Um, so you have to be able to to deal with pain well. And if you're tightening up and then relaxing and tightening up and relaxing, the tattoo goes deeper and shallower, deeper and shallower. So to have a beautiful tattoo, it it took being able to control yourself during pain, being able to relax yourself, being able to finish what you say you can do, that's commendable, being able to manage your money because this [ __ ] ain't cheap. No. You know, if you're buying a beautiful painting for the wall and it's $50,000, people understand that. But they don't [Music] understand,000 tattoos, you know.

Anyways, it's commendable. You know, I've tattooed it at least 30,000 hours, maybe. Yeah. I wonder how much. Yeah. 35 40,000 people at Carrie Barber's shop. You know how H Heart and Huntington was busy? Yeah.

It's a trip. " We used to, it used to be a very famous, popular shop. People used to come from Canada, Japan, Europe, Germany, England, everywhere. Carrie Barbara's shop was so [ __ ] well-known and a st it was just a trip. And so we would often have five people waiting for there were always four tattooers. We were all busy from beginning to end of shift. Damn. And anyways, I like that energy.

It was fun. Always like being that busy. Oh man. Yeah, it was a good time. Less tattooers puts more people in your in your lap. Yeah, these So, this is kind of like going back to what we were talking about about pain and going through this uh this life experience. Uh it I'm It can be very special. It can be.

Yeah. But I'm seeing this total opposite stuff we're seeing right now with the anesthesiologists like coming into tattooing and they're putting people down. Well, this is like really interesting. One thing I've learned is I love tattooing. So, if it would take that to to allow me to do what I love, I'm okay with it. I'm not against it. But one thing that I have never heard come up is what about if the next day during their severe swelling Yeah. they go into shock and die.

What if that they're forgetting that it's an injury, you know? Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. It's a very gnarly. Yeah. Trauma, you know. It's not like losing a hand or but you uh you're definitely going to be swelling.

you're going to have a harder heel. The more you injure, the harder that heel is, you know? Yeah. So, most That's why traditional Japanese tattooers only work one to two hours per session. A lot of people don't know. Yeah, you know, Moroshi 3, he does 1 hour sessions. He'll do like six, seven people a day, but each one only gets one hour because the more you do, the worse it heals. Okay?

The worse it heals, the more cleanup you have later. " I heard someone say that about Horoshi 3 one time. Like Yo Yoshi was this um guy, he had some a beautiful bodysuit and then he was very famous and he put on his maybe it was MySpace at the time or something. I'm going in to get touchup on my tattoo and he went to Horoshi and he touched up for like 9 hours. You know what I mean? Because the [ __ ] don't heal easy. It needs clean up. " It's like your body Well, in every Your body's having a [ __ ] hard time dealing with holding this mineral.

So, clean up, touchup is a normal part of body suits. Yeah, it makes sense to me. I don't. Yeah. Like you said though, I'm I'm not seeing when they're doing anesthesia. We're not seeing this followup of the week after. Like I want to really I don't want to talk to those people. " No, your whole body.

It is saying that your body is not that tattoo is not going to look as good. It's going to look blurrier and milkier. The harder time your body has healing a tattoo, the more blurry and milky it looks. It don't make a tattoo go away. It might be 5% blurriier or it might be 25% blurriier, might be 5% milkier, might, you know, and it's like, but the best scenario is take it easy on the body and your body will heal it better. The easier it is for your body to heal a tattoo, like young 20-year-olds that are healthy, I'll tattoo on them and they'll come back two weeks later and they've already dropped all the [ __ ] dry and everything and I'm like, man, you are healthy, you know? And then the older we get, the harder it is for your body to deal with cuz your body just ain't what it used to be.

A lot more sensitive. So yeah, it's it's it's thinking that healing has nothing to do with the tattoo that trips me out. It's like if you're doing you got three three people each doing six hours. So you've got 18 hours worth of tattooing in one session and it's this big. Okay. " Okay. So you take pain pills for 9 days or whatever while it hurts and it's you know and all this and it's going to be pussing and oozing and rescabing and and then the whole thing is is like but that also ruins the look that it could have been. It could have been crisper.

It could have been you know less washed out, less milky. Huh. Yeah. So that's that's the stuff that trips me out how it's just not thought of as the look of the tattoo is what is important to me like the look of a painted canvas rather than the moment the canvas was was painted we all sang this chant and we all threw our [ __ ] high heels at the wall and did you know it's like no it's not about doing the painting it's about the painting but that's just dionic art and there's two types of art. There's Dionic art and appalonian. I can't remember the two. Anyways, one type of art is uh for time like Leonardo da Vinci's few paintings he did. We're so grateful that we get to still admire those uh Michelangelo sculptures his frescos those are I can't remember if it's appalone.

Anyways, that's the that's a type of art. I like that type of art. There's the other type of art where it's of the moment. Back when I used to tattoo at this at a in a street shop, there would be people like like um like all going while the music's going and I go, "Hey, man, sit still like, "No, man. " Well, slayers. And you know, and then they're bragging later like, "Oh, [ __ ] or they'll say like um they'll call you a sadist cuz they they think you're the same as them. " Yeah. Okay.

Art of the moment like a ballet. Okay. We can't see a ballet that was done 400 years ago. Um so that's two types of like yokoono screaming. Okay. That's this type of art which is the people that are all about the [ __ ] like moment of the [ __ ] [ __ ] yeah man [ __ ] hurt and I was [ __ ] cool and [ __ ] the blood was squirting everywhere. It's like that's not part of the tattoo for me but some people it is. So, the two types of art is so people showing off is what I feel like it is is showing off that they've got money.

So, they're paying their $6 to $16,000 for anesthesia. What doesn't matter to them is that the tattoo looks great later. Yeah, I don't think I don't or But to me, what the tattoo looks like later, there's not right or wrong and it's all good, man. I I I love tattoos and it's awesome that they're getting tattooed and it's awesome that they're promoting tattoos and it's just different types of art. I don't say that's wrong and I don't say what I do is right. I have the same exact outlook on it. I don't I I don't have a strong opinion machine. I'm just genuinely enjoying watching this happen and wondering like what the hell is this?

I'm kind of intrigued and I would like to maybe it would be cool to go sit in on it and just see the experience, you know, but it' be wild. Yeah. I don't think that it's thought of like will this tattoo look good later since we did it this way. Yeah. But then that maybe that don't matter. That's why I was talking about the two different types cuz the presentation of that moment of getting the tattoo is what's gotten all the attention. Yeah. Right.

It kind of turns into some [ __ ] you know? Yeah. Nobody knows what the tattoo was. " No, they thought of the moment of the anesthesia, the three tattooers, and Yeah. or more, you know, and it's like that's the performance. A performance a tattoo. This is not performance. This is experience.

Yeah. It's long lasting. Yeah. Yeah. As long as I am. Yeah. Well, dude, any I mean, anything else that you like to talk about? I like um I really enjoyed this.

This is fun. I could I I want to talk to you more too about Japanese the history and maybe we can get you back and specifically just talk about like genres or anything like that. Yeah, that's real fun, man. I really like that. So, um and drawing. So, we want to do some stuff in the future where we sit down and draw together while we Yeah, absolutely. I love drawing. Yeah.

Um I used to I used to um draw an hour every day, period. That's great. I did that. Well, once I started wanting to become a professional tattooer. Yeah. " Yeah. This will look like [ __ ] in the skin. Then he taught me the differences.

Once I started learning that, it's like um I draw on the skin. Everything I do, I draw on the skin. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And and so anyways, I set myself a a thing where draw an hour a day every day and set a timer. I used to set a timer for like four or five years. I would set the timer for 1 hour and I would draw and sometimes it'd be like, why isn't the timer going off?

And I look and it's like, [ __ ] it's only been 25 minutes. And then I'm like, okay, you still got to draw until the timer goes off. Then other times, yeah, I would uh be drawing and then I've always learned, my mom taught me, um, inspiration comes from motivation and motivation comes from action. Um, so if you're waiting to be motivated, you you know, it'll be rare. It'll be few and far between once a month or something if you're lucky. So anyways, I learned, you know, action and then sometimes that hour would turn into four because it felt like an hour. You know what I mean? It would ding and I'd be like, "Whoa, I, you know, I wouldn't even pay attention.

" Yeah. But drawing um I think is important for someone that would call themselves a tattooer. But at the same time, like Rick, he he could draw all this [ __ ] right on or tattoo it right on without even drawing it half the time. Um because he'd done it so many times. So that's why I started drawing an hour a day every day. It's like that's also why a lot of my stuff like if somebody goes, you know, I want to get a koi. will you draw it for me? And I'm like, well, have you seen my koi in the past decade?

And they're like, yeah. And I go, well, you already know what it's going to look like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, you know, a Vans tennis shoes all of a sudden changed their style. It wouldn't be Vans to you anymore.

So, I I have a style that's very natural out of my hand. And drawing has done that. I don't know why the [ __ ] I went on that tangent. Natural. I mean, I'm I'm huge supporter of like uh illustrators in general, and I feel like these days right now, if you're there's not a whole lot of illustrators that specifically stand out with their drawing on paper. Hands on paper is gone. Yeah. I still My son Cameron, he uses um you know, the sketch pad and the pen.

He says, "Dad, it speeds me up a lot in the tattoo shop because I can't draw as fast as you. It might take him 40 minutes to draw the same rose. It takes me 3 minutes to draw. Yeah. " Yeah. Or like actual art, painting on paper and stuff cuz there was a little while where I was seeing some really neat stuff and I would ask the tattooer, "Oh, I love that. " You know, might just be a little flash of something. " Yeah.

Yeah. It's not physical. " Yeah. I can't buy it or appreciate it as wall art. It's just I don't know. There's something special. Yeah. A hand on paper.

No, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have a great amount of appreciation for digital artist. Yeah. NFT. I want to I want to sell some NFTts, too. Yeah.

Well, that's good, man. So, um Jeez, I don't know. Like, I think we only got on two topics. I apologize. No, it's good. I really enjoyed it and I'm uh I want to like come back and talk some more for sure. It's fun. I would love to have you back.

And well, I am um a weirdo. I'm a [ __ ] homebody. I I think I've become a a bit agorophobic. I've I've learned I've got PTSD and but I only I'm I'm 60 going on 62 and I've only learned that this past year. I've never I've never Well, you know, back when I got blown up or the I've had so many things, man. I've been shot. I've been stabbed. I've been blown up.

I've died twice. Okay. Literally died twice. It's a trip. It It's like u But I never thought of anything like, "Oh, I've got troubles from it or anything. " Yeah. Where, you know, you don't you don't wear all that [ __ ] out on your sleeve and you don't ask for um sympathy. You don't ask for attention.

But a weird thing is is I probably should have had sympathy and attention. So anyways, I've become a bit agorophobic. Um getting out and doing things. Um it doesn't scare me. Yeah. But it it makes me react sometimes and and so it's it's nice. This is almost a good therapy for me getting getting out there again. I mean, I've been on [ __ ] national television for two years.

It you know what I mean? It's it's like for somebody like me to say like, "Yeah, I I don't I don't like people looking at me. " All this stuff has just changed for me over the years and I think it's slowly doing some sort of a morphing and I'm I think I'm better for it and I'm getting better with it. Yeah. Do you tattoo at night or you tattoo in the mornings? Um during the day usually daytime. Yeah. Yeah.

I I'm not a vampire anymore. Yeah. Yeah. m. at Carrie Barbara shop and that was on the schedule 4 days a week and then or three days a week and then the other two days were 10our days. That's how much I love tattooing. " Yeah. No, I'm I was in my element.

I loved it and everything. But these days I work alone. I I I've I I work well with others. I do. And I and and and I love watching other people work. But I started learning that my personality does make people nervous. Um younger people that I've worked with um after a few months will start to think I don't [ __ ] like them. And I've learned that that's just just because you're quiet or something.

I've learned if I don't say like, "Oh my god, I love what you're doing, man. That's really creative. " I'll find out. Like, oh, so and so wants to know why you don't like him. " I I do. Yeah. But anyways, it's just changed over the years where I think I just come from a different generation. That's made me a bit agorophobic and I think that's the word.

Yeah. I'm learning this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a lot of younger artists that work with me over the years that have the same thing and I don't ever think of myself as like crass or grumpy or anything. You know, I'm all I'm frank, but they want me to like pay more attention to them. Yes.

Let them know that you you think they're special and and it's like at least five times a year I'll tell somebody, "Man, your [ __ ] is so [ __ ] cool. " that that style you do is you. And u then if I don't do it like on every [ __ ] Monday, pretty soon they're like going, "Why doesn't Clark like me, man? " And and I'm like, "I do still [ __ ] like you, man. " [ __ ] busy and I'm a grown man. I'm doing my own thing, too. But little things. That's funny.

But I still I still if I don't like you, you know it. I [ __ ] you know, all I do is say, "I [ __ ] like you, man. I do not [ __ ] like you. It's as simple as that, you know? So, if I'm not saying that, that means I'm I'm cool, right? I've always felt like if I'm not pulling you aside and talking to you, then you're doing a great job. Or if I don't care about you enough to take you aside and talk to you, that means I'll tell you to get the [ __ ] out of here. If I like you, I will talk to you.

Yeah. If I don't like you, I I won't I'll just say I don't [ __ ] like you. [ __ ] make space. That seems like a really perfect way to communicate because then everybody knows where they stand and you'll just stay out of the way but they don't have the different you know it is a different generation. What year were you born at? I was born in 1980. So you were doing handpoke tattoos when I was Yeah. Yeah.

It's just different generations, man. That's like um what I was talking about with the punk [ __ ] It's like um I used to like the weirdos, the Avengers, the Dills, uh the Germs, these [ __ ] late '7s punk bands. Sex Pistols, the Ramones, Cramps. Even DVO at that time was so [ __ ] you know, it was part of Blondie. It was like that was my generation. And then I've had people go like, "Oh, man. " They're all bad Brains. This is what particular that happened.

" And they're like, "No, they were [ __ ] really early and [ __ ] also can't be around to see everything. I Yeah, I think I think I'm like a I think the you know the late '7s world is like a reaction to the hippie [ __ ] Yeah. And and the [ __ ] coddling in the [ __ ] sex with everybody thing that started ruining things and don't spank your children started ruining things. But at the same time, you know, I feel pretty fortunate where I came into tattooing. I I appreciated and I was able to be around a lot of old school guys too and I looked up to them but then I was also having all these younger like graffiti guys around me influencing me too and and it's awesome [ __ ] and I was genuinely in love with like all aspects of what I was and I still am too in love with all aspects but what I love doing with my hands as a tattooer.

Yeah. Like when I paint I still love doing portraiture. No [ __ ] Yeah. Oh yeah. you you're uh you have this like interesting kind of your watercolored approach where it's like droplets almost and then it builds up this texture. I thought that was beautiful. It's cool. I remember watching my mom um she's been waterc coloring ever since I was a little kid.

I would just be sitting at the dining room table and she would and it's got its own [ __ ] thing. And I tried a little bit when I was just kind of trying to do like more of the American traditional stuff in the very beginning and then but I'm just like all over the [ __ ] place. I'm like I like having access to all the materials and then just kind of throwing them all together and seeing what happens. Yeah. Something about [ __ ] has very specifics like, you know, very specific records I like to listen to while I'm tattooing. Very specific style I like doing with my hands while I'm tattooing. Very specific style I like doing when I'm oil painting. Very specific style I like doing when I'm waterc coloring.

And each of these are different. Yeah, that's cool. That's Speaking of records, I got to invite you. We're doing a vinyl record art show for our shop's 21-y year anniversary. Vinyl record? Yes. We're going to paint Zia Records donated 120 records. Oh, really?

So, I'm distributing them to tattooers all over. And Oh, and for the sleeve. Nope. We're going to do on the record. Oh, no way. Yeah. So, a lot of us like some guy, you know, like I'm going to gesso mine, I think, and then build up texture on it. Uh, some guys are doing like cold pressed paper, doing real nice clean watercolors.

Some are doing I mean everybody's kind of have 3D printer guys that are gonna print [ __ ] and like attach it to the record. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So I think it'll be pretty fun. It's a charitable art show or raising money for You know what I did with my mom's records? Oh [ __ ] She She was a Bobby Soxer from the 50s like Elvis and some of her records that would probably worth a lot now. I I made like potato chip bowls out of or the sleeves. Um, it fit over my head.

And I used to like this show called Inframan. I think it was Infram. It was a Japanese show where his helmet kind of looked like that. Yeah. And then I would put a slit, cut a slit in it. I would wear the record sleeves. They were probably like from 1956. Do you collect vinyl now or you say I still have um I have all my mom's 45s and I have a couple of her 12 in.

I have my mom's 45. Yeah. And I still have um all of my coming of age albums. I gave my children um I had like 3,000 albums in in 1979 80. I worked in a record store in Huntington Beach. Oh, cool. Yeah. It was like before there was record stores for punk, you know, there was like all you could find at that time was like Journey and Yeah.

But anyways, um great album covers. Yeah. She used to sell me the records at cost and and and I had accumulated three to 4,000 records, but I still have Yeah, I still have That's a good collection. I think we counted 700 records. Okay. I still have like my favorite bands like the Weirdos. They were my favorite band to see back in the 70s was the Weirdos. Okay.

They were so cool. Uh the Avengers, the Dills. I still have like all the [ __ ] that I grew the Ramones, the Sex Pistols was the stuff that I collect. " Yeah. But that's the [ __ ] that I was listening to when I was a teenager. Yeah. But sometimes when you put it on, it takes you back. Yeah.

So, at one point, maybe about 10 12 years ago, I went through my records and if it didn't take me back and I gave it to my children and then so my boys each had, you know, were given I don't know how many a thousand records or something. Gave those to them. Dang, that's cool. Then they got stolen from from them. M. Yeah. That's a bummer. Well, and you got an open house full of parters.

Yeah. So, do you said does your son tattoo? Mhm. Oh, okay. My youngest Cameron hate tattoos. Um, me and my ex-wife put my oldest our oldest Me and my ex-wife put both of our children through college or into college. Okay. Um, our oldest finished college and he is now a um construction manage manager.

He he um he works for the National Park System. So that when they're having buildings built, they they have a construction company. Then they have their team that's like the designers and [ __ ] Yeah. Well, he is on site while they're building to communicate communicate between the two. So he just actually finished a job in Colorado for the past since March, I think. And that's for like um a ranger station. Yeah. That was burned down in the forest fires a few years ago.

Two years ago. He's getting ready to move to Maine for another national park job. So Ian stayed in college and he's making decent money. And then Cameron wanted to keep quitting college. So, I think we put him into three or four different college things, but it didn't work out. And then he he became well, I taught him how to tattoo. I taught him for one year and then Rick Walters uh took him on for his first year. So, Cameron Cameron u Yeah, I taught him for one year and then he worked at Rick's shop for one year after that and then he's been tattooing I think eight eight and a half years now.

Wow. Okay. Is he in he's not in Vegas or No, he's not in Vegas right now. He He's had some ups and downs with things and he's messed himself up a bit with um he's he's having a hard time with life. So, he's um he's he's definitely on a recovery road. Yeah. But yeah, he's been tattooing eight years now. Okay, cool.

And he's a good tattooer. He just um you know maybe because of his parents' divorce. I don't know. He's just We'll get there. He's a good tattooer. He's in his He's in his 30s. Once he's in his 40s and 50s, that'll all be in his past. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. Stick with it and be in love with it. I feel like tattooing has helped me learn so much about life and really helped me stick with something, too. And I've always been over I bounce all over the place. And there's just nothing that I've stick with more than tattooing. And I I just love doing this now, too, cuz I'm still getting to talk. I'm I'm not tattooing as much as I once was. But it's just great to still be involved.

And I just love it. I love talking about it with all different people. Yeah. It's really cool. It's like, but it's helped me out a lot. And it's brought me a lot of great stuff. It's also brought me a lot of stress and stuff, too. Yeah, it's ups and downs just like anything.

Like I just think if you decided to be a full-time oil painter, you know, you're going to go through the same types of things. If you're going to be a full-time 7-Eleven owner, you're going to be going to Yeah. It's once it's a job. Yeah. But we're lucky, man. Very lucky that people like what we do enough to sit in our chairs. I struggle big time when I hear people complain about it. I'm just like, man, just oh, you're obviously doing it wrong, then like you should just be in love with it and like it's Yeah, it's like it's it's it's gone in waves, man.

There was there was in the 70s tattooing became very very [ __ ] popular. Um, it's gone in these little waves where had this slump in the late60s, then the late 70s climbed and then it it goes in waves. And right now it's another wave of of um tattooers not easily paying the bills. Yeah. But that has come and gone in my career three times. And then as far as watching my friends careers, it's it it happened to Mike Brown. It happened to Mark Mahoney back in the 80s. Yeah.

It comes and little waves and if if you if you love it enough, it's okay. It's hard. [ __ ] hard. You just have to figure out other things to sell and then hopefully people will admire you enough to buy those other things, right? It's cool to see Mark Mahoney still tattooing. Yeah, he's I know. Yeah, he I think he was 19 when we met. I was Oh [ __ ] Maybe he was 18 when I met.

Whenever he moved from New York to to California is when we met and he was at the Rose Tattoo. I think that was in 79 or 80. You know what's funny is I went down to see him and um and uh went in and he wasn't there and there was this other guy that was like a helper before. " And he goes, "Mark's not here anymore. " Oh, no way. And then uh found out later that that was Jonathan Shaw's first first day tattoo. And I have it. What?

Yeah, I am. One of Jonathan Shaw's first professional tattoos. Dang. That's fun. You've been tattooed uh by some pretty inspiring people or did did you when you were younger go or I don't know how long recently you've been tattooed like go to the people that you wanted to be inspired by and learn from and get tattooed by. I didn't think of it like that. Um, it just ha happened to be that I grew up in the neighborhood with these tattooers. You know, Mike Brown, Mark Mahoney, uh, well, you know, even Rick and Yeah.

Phil Sims. I come from the town where Bob Shaw and Colonel Todd Yeah. were, you know, tattooing and and and then being part of their family. It's like, you know, Rick taught me. I I have this, I think, on my website and I put it out there sometimes. I'm very proud and lucky to have been taught by Rick. Rick was taught by Phil Sims and Phil Sims was taught by Bob Shaw. Bob Shaw was taught by Bert Graham and Bert Grim was taught by Charlie Bars.

So, it's it's like each one of those figured out a little bit, you know? That's wild. Yeah. I think my lineage goes right back to there. I I have to ask Phil Luck again. He always breaks it down for me and I I get lost in in between. But um there was a guy Hinge that I think learned from Oh my god. Somebody out there and then he taught um my mentor and Aaron Delivadova and Dave Log and then I So I learned how to cool.

Yeah. So I got to I I learned So he was my mentor. So yeah. So So you have his family. The people that taught him learned things from the people that taught them. And hopefully that was all given to you. Yeah. And then you've learned things as you tattoo.

And if you teach somebody else, you've got their knowledge plus a little bit more. Yeah, that's what a family tree does. I'm excited. I'm going to have Willie Cutlip. He's a fantastic illustrator and tattooer. He he lives here, but he's one of the guys that I taught how to tattoo and he's going to come on and so we're share stories and stuff. And I'm hoping to get Dave on here, too. So, we'll just kind of Very cool.

It's, you know, something that I don't think too many people have been doing, but to have all of it documented and listen to people and their perspectives and stories and stuff is I'm I'm pretty excited about continuing on to do this. It's cool. Yeah. So, yeah, I just happen to be in that neighborhood. That's how I happen to learn things from those people. Yeah, I've fell into it completely. " And I was like, "Oh, okay. So, I mean, yeah, I'll get a tattoo.

I don't I was terrified at the same time, but and then I ended up drawing something up that he tattooed on me and then it just kind of we clicked from there and then Yeah, it was fun. That that's one of the things I um Mark did that on me I think in 81. Really? 81. Yeah. That's that's a drawing I did. " Cuz it was just a dagger with a woman's face on. And at the time it had a a thing for women with shaved heads.

Okay. Fetish thing. Anyways, that's a Yeah, a woman with shaved head and the dagger and Anyways, that's that's an old one. Dang. From I have Yeah. Mike Brown. Rick. Yeah.

I have bunch of friends that have tattooed me. Yeah. My children tattooed me when they were three and then they tattooed me again when they were like 14. Yeah. Uh what we used to do on a boring day was play tic-tac-toe. I have a bunch of tic-tac-toe on me and none of them have I ever won. One just losing matches up your legs. Yeah.

Yeah. My wife tattooed me the other day. She never tattooed. She doesn't even illustrate or anything. Yeah. We switched little tattoos. My wife Terry um worked at the tattoo shop at Carrie Barbas for a decade. Oh, no way.

Okay. It was her day job. She works at the hotel. This was out in LA, but she worked for the Hilton um group coordinator um during the day. Um but I worked until two in the morning. So only time we could see each other, you know. We've been together 30 years now. No [ __ ] That's great.

Yeah. But um the only time we could see each other is if she came down. So she was hanging out at the shop for like 9 months or something. Carrie said, "You're here all the time. " and her being around the tattooing so much. And she was even around when I was tattooing at home before I got I tattooed my Terry, my wife now. I tattooed her while I was still married to Holly. Use tattoo out of my house, you know.

No way. And uh anyways, she did a tattoo on me probably around 2000 or 99 somewhere in there. And it was crazy. And it is still a perfect tattoo just from her being Yeah. listening and the stretching I think is the most misunderstood part of tattooing these days is stretching is is not just stretch and that's it. It's there's particular stretches and positions. Yeah. Yeah.

Especially all over the I think that's lost, but she she like she nailed it. She got the shading, she got the color, she got the line work, and it's all that's like 20 24 25 years old now, and it's still a good tattoo. That's awesome. Dang. Yeah. My mom tattooed my leg. That was the one and only tattoo she's ever done. Yeah.

She's been an illustrator. She was the most inspir inspiring person in my life as far as art. Um and then my dad tattooed me and my sister tattooed me. She's never actually my sister was she was working the front counter for years and she was this real pretty blonde. All the guys want to pay attention to her and she con we drew this little logo for her. Uh it was a little corn dog like throwing a her nickname is corn corn dog. Uh, so she she would do that little piece of flash on all these random guys and then would let her see Dave's outhouse that little outouse with the money on the door. Yeah.

Or Rick had his um I'll shoot you. No, he had his um little [ __ ] Yes. Sam Rick Walters buddy downtown or the Rick Walters Rose. He had a little he had a little stick drawing of him that I know he's tattooed on a bunch of my buddies. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Little things like that.

So, well, [ __ ] man. I say we wrap it up. Um, yeah. Yeah, that was good. That was great. I really appreciate you taking the time to come down and I'm like I'm super excited. I want to talk more about this in the future and and then if you have any other fun stories to tell or anything, just hit me up. Yeah.

It's like we'll get you in on the drawing night program we're or project we're putting together. I think that'd be fun. Sometimes Sometimes I don't remember [ __ ] Yeah. I'll reach out to you. Yeah. " I know. You ever had a client [ __ ] on you? I haven't had [ __ ] on me, but I've had uh just some wet farts working on the ribs.

Those are that, too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess you could We could end the show with a [ __ ] story. You want a [ __ ] story? [ __ ] story. Give me the [ __ ] story. [ __ ] it.

There was this There was this Yeah, there was this guy I used to tattoo. He was maybe in his 40s, late 30s. And this is while I was in my 20s, early or late 20s, early 30s, somewhere around there. He's a little older. He worked at Belleview Hospital, which was a mental Okay. criminal mental hospital. Yeah. So, um, every time he had a close call of getting killed, he would come in and get another luck tattoo because he needed more luck.

Oh, wow. And and so like every three to five months he would almost get killed at his job and he would come get more tattoos. And then he had a girlfriend and um like one time she wanted to get tattooed. I don't know why I brought him up at all, but it was about her. She wanted a cute tattoo on her butt cheek. And so she was she's laying on her on her belly. " And I'm like, "Whoa, let no problem. " Anyways, um after a little while, I came back out and I was working.

I had her panties off, you know what I mean? just I was working and um as I was working I was like what and I looked and I had a little raisin and and I go oh [ __ ] and she goes what and I go I got a little pooplet oh my god oh my god I go yeah you gave me a little [ __ ] razor like all I could figure is like as I was working her butt cheeks were slowly working it out my Yeah. And it was right. Oh my god. I'll I'll never forget that. Just for you. Just a little little treat. Yeah.

At least didn't get on my shoes. It was just little. Well, I think that's about it. We ended it with a [ __ ] story. Thank you guys so much. Thank you, Clark. Um, how do we get a hold of you? com.

Um, right now I'm out of my book, but um my book's going to be back in stock soon. Hopefully. hopefully in time for the um what is it called? Black Friday. Hopefully in time for that. So I've got my um it's it's it's drawings I've done over the past uh 15 maybe 10 years past 10 years just of tattoos or ideas. Yeah, it's just a bunch of drawings kind of like a coloring book. I have that.

Um, I also am all you got to do is search Clark North Art and uh even on Amazon, Clark North Art on Amazon, you'll get shirts, posters, paintings, lithos. Um, or just Google search Clark North Art because if you don't, if you just search Clark North, you get like North Clark County. Oh, yeah. Or Clark Street. North Clark Street. So, it thinks it's a direction or a town. But Clark North Art or Clark North Tattoo and um that's your Instagram too. And my Instagram is Clark North Tattoo.

Yeah, Clark North Tattoo. com. Sweet. Those are the the main ones. And I'm probably forgetting something I should plug, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and uh yeah, don't don't be afraid to reach out.

I I uh I scare people until we get to know each other. That's what I'm told. So, you're a sweetheart. Yeah, that's good, man. Well, thank you again. I greatly appreciate it. And uh thanks for tuning in, guys. We will see you around.

Keep up um on the next episodes. All right. Bye, guys. Bye. Peace.